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ARTICLE IN SLOVENIAN JANA MAGAZINE:

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CALL TO ALL OFFICIALS OF THE ORGANIZATION

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Don´t ignore not everybody believes
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] June 2011
    Posts: 0
    Reply to @SunYaC:
    no sorry, you have no knowledge of facts, only stories and false memories or in some cases lies of some girls
    to stay on the path is to stay on the path, you know that, you change your spiritual path or in some cases you lost it (I mean not you as just you Sunyac)
  • someonefromhungary June 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @member:

    dear member,

    I can only offer "my truth".
    and "my truth" is what I can see directly... that is, the poor management of this conflict.

    but of course, "your truth" may say something else. so may I ask what you think about this aspect, and more specifically, whether you are satisfied with the way swAmi and yidl seem to treat those who have complaints or doubts?

    unfortunately, "my truth" is that I expected much more from swAmi's part... :(
  • SunYaC June 2011
    Posts: 41
    Reply to @member: Excuse me member, but it's really childish and supremely blind to think that you know what knowledge some other person has and what facts he is aware of...

    Yes, to stay on the path can also mean to quit the 'master' when one finds out that he is not genuine and then find more veritable spiritual shelter. Then one not only "stays on the path", but even starts to make real spiritual progress on the path :)
  • mangal June 2011
    Posts: 489
    Reply to @member: No, on the contrary, the main fact we can see is total lack of healthy critical thinking in yidl, other things like testaments and your proclamation are thing of trust. I am not devil, i consider myself as a devotee of Mahaprabhuji, and i think i have justice to write what i have in my head. Why a lot of yidl defenders proclaim us as a devils who will suffer in hell? A lot of people here has more healthy thinkink than i have seen in yidl for 15 years, but this not mean i believe everything what they says
  • Durchanand June 2011
    Posts: 74
    Reply to @member:
    dear member, how can you know??? - "...because I know and believe that he didn't do anything to those girls..." pls explain that to me.
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] June 2011
    Posts: 0
    Reply to @Durchanand:
    I chose to believe the One from whom I received only good last XXX (many) years and not to believe to some anonimous stories. I think it's morally. I expect it in normal human relationships, for example, from my partner after a years long marriage. I expect that my partner knows me as a person and trusts me more than someone who has just met, and that person wants to reveal "the truth" about me without any concrete prove. This believe is normal human behavior and I expect it from my close people.
    In addition, those stories are just not credible enough. Especially if we take into account how often false accusations of sex abuse occurs because of false memories. Children are accusing their parents, what could be worse.
    Second, if you are talking about all this on the most banal way (I don't like that, but still), and accept that he did this, he could certainly do it with many girls who would do that and not experience it as abuse.
    And the most important thing, after years of beeing His desciple, I accept Him as perfect Master and as such he cannot harm nobody.
    If you realy asked me about my reasons, here they are...This are the reasons why I believe that is all not true.
  • mangal June 2011
    Posts: 489
    Reply to @member: I think that noone can have problem with your choice. Your argument why you choose such way are ok. Are ok about your relationship with swAmi. But maybe it is a bit narrow-but i can understand it-if someone have such relationship-hard to want he think in global. My opinion is, that swAmi should be more active and try to understand those girls and ask them why and so on. He is to much short in this causa. If i loved every soul much more that my i would not be short in try to get know why my lovely soul tell such story about me.
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] June 2011
    Posts: 0
    yes, you got this too, it is my responsibility, everybody is responsible for him self

    and this other "getting out of the cult" saving thing....I am not drowning guys, I am swimming, please don't try to save me :-)))
    If you will not try to save me, I will promise that I will not try to save you :-)…at least we should not save each other like missionaries
    were “saving” poor Indian souls sometimes, kill them then baptize them
  • truthseeker June 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @member: "were “saving” poor Indian souls sometimes, kill them then baptize them."

    You are probably referring to Christian missionaries? Then what about Gurus from India trying to baptize us Westerners to Hinduism (also known as sanatan dharma)? Isn't that just the same? Apparently Christians are not allowed to baptize, only Hindus are. That only makes sense if Hinduism is superior to Christianity. Is that your opinion? In case you didn't know, the Christian missionaries have the same opinion about their own religion.
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] June 2011
    Posts: 0
    Reply to @truthseeker:
    O my Good ...of course, any religious missionaries...christian, hindu, muslim...you name it they have it :-)
  • truthseeker June 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @member: but you think your master isn't baptizing?
  • pavitra June 2011
    Posts: 270
    I'm sorry Member for only one thing - thay with my emotional, rude and vulgar message I took away your attention from the more accurate, argumented and cool answers to comex that came from other nice and wise people. I didn't mean to hurt you but Comex message was deeply offensive for my sisters, myself as a woman and for all abused victims in general. Every single sex offender, when he has to admit the crime, is always using the argument of the victim that was attempting and provocating him. As some other people here I have also the feeling that Comex is swAmi and we can take his message as a quite open admission of the facts from his perspective. I really didn't want to hurt you or the person you are so deeply in love with. I wanted to hurt the person who has sexually abused my sister. I'm deeply sorry that in this case the person coincidentally is the same. I don't have anything against you and if you don't like my messages you are welcome to simply ignore them.
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] June 2011
    Posts: 0
    Reply to @pavitra:
    you are so wrong, I can tell you, comex is not person you hate so much
  • truthseeker June 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @member: but I believe Connex, whoever he or she is, knows more about what's really going on in YiDL.
  • pavitra June 2011
    Posts: 270
    Thank you Member for reading my message and answering at it. I appreciated it.
  • SunYaC June 2011
    Posts: 41
    Reply to @member:

    Actually rather then trying to put those poor girls on your imaginatory lie detector, questioning the credibility of their memories and speculating about what facts can or cannot the others know, much more intelligent approach from your side would be to say yourself something like:

    "Well, it's quite strange. There are plenty of people who were happily living their satisfied life in YiDL. They respected and valued the swAmi exactly as me. For many years they would worshipped him, went to satsangs, listetened to his lectures, joyfully sang the bhajans, did the sadhana, repeated the guru mantra... They adored the swAmi and considered him the real Guru like I do. But now they are gone. And some of them are pretty upset and even angry. Why? Why they so drastically changed their opinion? I know that yoga works. It definitely worked for them too. So why they've left? Maybe they really found out something what I don't know yet... Otherwise their abandoning the YiDL and the swAmi doesn't make any sense. Let me think about it a little... Maybe they really know something? They must have some substantional reason that they left such a nice selfrealized swAmi and such all-beneficial organization as YiDL is."

    Please, try to change your mindset this way for a while and look at things from different perspective. We understand you. We we're like you. Let's now you try to understand us ;)
  • Connex June 2011
    Posts: 49
    @< Why? Why they so drastically changed their opinion? >


    There are many possible causes to turn away from a guru, even more than just to separate from a partner.

    A person changes frequently the attitude towards the master, depends on ones set of beliefs and spiritual maturity.

    Each time you get some input from a guru you overcome parts of the “needy one” inside. Therefore you need to adjust your perspective many times and update your relationship with him.

    The human psyche will undergo significant changes after each fulfilment of basic needs or gifts you get by the guru. Thereby the former tunings get lost and compatibility to the master’s spiritual frequency fails unless you regain appropriate focus.

    Some are disappointed and feel abandoned by the master. But it’s their own state of mind that changed, not the master.

    One forgets what one received in the heart. As well as in a dream - you cannot recall it, even if you want to. Then intellect takes over ...
  • PallasAthene June 2011
    Posts: 246
    Reply to @Connex: You are on the wrong track. I can recall every single gift, my heart is full of them. That's why it hurts so much. But abuse is abuse. There is nothing more to say. You don't believe in it. Super! I do and it would never been happen if he have had more open and standing people surrounding him. Please, don't tell me how i am feeling or dreaming or any other thing. You only can talk about your experience with your master. Books are books. Humans are Humans.

    Hari OM
  • Connex June 2011
    Posts: 49
    Reply to @PallasAthene:

    Sorry, I didn't mean you personally
    I spoke of very rare, subtile experiences that only happen in the presence of a divine master and can not be recalled in memory. For nobody. Like memories of a Samadhi cannot be compared to the real experience. That experience which awakes Vairagya in an instant.
  • PallasAthene June 2011
    Posts: 246
    Reply to @Connex: Now you are talking about something which cannot be remembered. That means, you are talking about something you read or someone told you. Probably Subecha is driving you. :)
  • Connex June 2011
    Posts: 49
    Reply to @PallasAthene:

    okay, I replace "remembered" with "re-loaded". Like one can remember ones first love but nobody can't re-load the true feeling. Although it may be possible by the use of certain techniques ...

  • PallasAthene June 2011
    Posts: 246
    Reply to @Connex: Now you kicked me out with the certain technique..:)

    How should anybody follows your arguments if a certain technique is required...:)
  • falseswamijifalseswamiji June 2011
    Posts: 255
    your intellect has really took over
  • Connex June 2011
    Posts: 49
    Reply to @Roman:
    I don’t mean to say they asked consciously or subconsciously for violence.

    I believe in mercy and compassion. It truly deserves compassion if somebody gets hurt, even one can only receive what’s written in the book of karma.

    I am not a woman hater. Women are rather connected to love and devotion, but since relationships missing appropriate quality, some just follow the “power-over” strategy by displaying their female attraction. Gaining self-esteem by wielding power over others is the world’s famous game.

    re: < Let say that six women could all make this up in their dirty, sex deprived minds. Now the question is if all those divine experiences, miracles which only pure souls can see and all that wasn’t also just a fantasy. Fantasy of reality deprived mind. Just think about it. >

    I don't have to think about that too long. Sw. never abused anybody. So what ever happend about the reported situations must have be something else.

    One can easily force different analysis/interpretation of one situation just by the power of definition (language). The language one choses depends on ones state of mind, fear, experience, fantasy, hope, etc. If one choses a tendentious term to discribe a situation, it creates a meaning according to what one intend to provoke in others.
  • PallasAthene June 2011
    Posts: 246
    Reply to @Connex: Yes, and during the Middle-Ages they have been called witches.

    :)))

    I respect and accept your deep belief. One thing is uniting us, the need for an emergency exit. Just we are not the creator of this drama.
  • pavitra June 2011
    Posts: 270
    Just to move on with Connex:
    I was sexually abused as a young child (5 - 6 years old). I realised myself that I will not overcome my traumas unless I do not understand the complete situation including the motives of the "other side". Accepting the book of karma motive is from the social point of view quite convenient as it prevents long, painful and expensive legal actions, it makes you accept with no exceptions your part of responsibility - guiltiness and it doesn't undermine the people faith in the rightness and goodness of our sacred social institutions (family, school and church or yidl).
    From the karmic point of view it’s quite sure that I have done some horrible things in my previous life(s) and this is the reason why the same horrible things happened to me in this life.
    But this answer doesn’t satisfy me. I believe in the present time and I believe that we people can change. We can change only if:
    - we accept that horrible things happen,
    - we understand the circumstances and motives
    - we take the right actions to prevent them to happen again.
    I don’t care if my new born baby was a serial rapper or killer in his previous life. I would do whatever I can to prevent him to be abused. And believe me my heart is big as this entire world: I would do whatever I can to prevent anyone to be abused or killed.
    I’m asking you kindly to look at the situation we are discussing in this forum right now from a different perspective.
    We are speaking about young ladies that spent a big portion of their time from the age of 14 years or less in a physical direct contact of a person they were accepting as a living god, their guru, master, spiritual teacher. Many people participating in this forum (including me) can testify what is sure beyond any doubt that the guru called them to his private rooms many times mostly during the night. We also know that the same girls can describe some peculiarity of their guru’s intimate body parts that can be seen only if he is naked.
    The same girls have given many details about the activities and sexual intercourses that happened during their staying in their guru’s private rooms during the nights they have been invited to spend there. They are also saying that they feel they were abused because they didn’t go to their guru for the described sexual experiences but because they were convinced they will get some deeper and wider spiritual experiences, something close or equal to the Samadhi or Moksha experiences. I personally understand that they needed a long time to realize that what was given to them wasn’t part of a Samadhi or Moksha process but a case of brutally primitive sex abuse of naive believers. It takes a long time to surrender completely to the person you love. In this process you are giving away your own beliefs, values, judgements, even your common sense and logic in order to accept the opinion, the ideas, the love of your beloved. This is your Samadhi, your Realization – you become One with your beloved. Whatever he wants and wishes is exactly what you want and wish. This is my dear Connex how it works. When I was sexually abused it was told me that No one in this world would love me more than the person who abused me. And from the abuser point of view this is the truth. He saw a small girl wearing red pants with white laces sprouting out from her green short baby doll dress and this reminded him of some situation (possibly from his previous life) enticed by a repressed sexual desire and other frustrations. What he was performing from his point of view was an act of love.
    A long letter I know to just come to a very short point: in order to prevent sexual abuses in the so called “spiritual world” to happen we have to make sure that the potential vulnerable victims understand the danger and we have to publicly declare and show what is a guru, master or spiritual teacher unacceptable behaviour.
    For me when you are suggesting that swAmi is innocent in his own nature and incapable of such things beyond any doubt, insinuating consequently that the victims must be crazy or lying, you are committing a crime towards all victims of sexual abuses.
    Connex I don’t believe in karma but if I would, I would really like my letter to be reported in the chapter dedicated to your personal achievements and deeds.
  • someonefromhungary June 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @pavitra: if I were the "judge", Connex making you write this letter would be definitely among his/her positive deeds :) :) :)
  • karavan June 2011
    Posts: 135
    Ey Pavitra, thank you for sharing your story with us, big hug
  • mangal June 2011
    Posts: 489
    TO Connex-there are 3 ways (like basic courses in social psychology tells us) how to solve our cognitive dissonance. (It means that there is some new information which threaten our paradigma)
    1-attack source of this info-tell about them they are crazy, deprived, and so on
    2-choose just some info from all which cannot harm our paradigma or can works as nr. 1.-that we are devils, rude, and so on.
    3-change sense of this info-they were blessed by prashad, tantra treatment and so on
    You can choose one of them, or all, but it is just effort how to give away your personal cognitive dissonancion.
    I dont believe that xx is bad person, but i must confess that maybe he has some problem-he believed that he is God and-maybe he is just messenger with good aim but human qualities. The problem could be dissociation problem-everyone expect that he is God-but he has human mind-and some shadow in mind can grow into "new person"
    I dont write it with aim to prove that i am clever or can judge him-My goal is to show, that concept of living Gods which (not only) XX uses faces toward such problems-it is dangerous concept and i criticises this concept-not XX
    Therefore-argument:who are we to judge such God is nonsense. I dont try to judge him, I judge this dangerous concept. How many gurus are there (and they have blank bill for everything) and how many of them are Gods? And who can prove it that they are? Blank bill is very dangerous......
  • friend June 2011
    Posts: 4
    Dear friends, I have been reading this forum for a while in the interests of seeking truth and of understanding my fellow human family, and would like to make a suggestion based what seems clear - that some people really appreciate having a place to speak about themselves and their feelings/thoughts about life in general and specifically about life involved with this particular yoga group.

    Addressing the administrator of this forum, dear Roman: if you would truly like that more people take the opportunity to be involved in this discussion - people with a variety of opinions and beliefs, including supporters of this yoga group and its founder - I would say that the name of the forum makes it very repelling for some people to trust your motives and to join in the discussion, despite their wanting to.

    It says at the top of the page: “This forum does not endorse officially any of the views expressed by its users. It is a discussion about two sides of a coin.”
    I would actually say it is not *two* sides of a coin, but many many differing perspectives, as none of us is exactly like each other in our views or experiences, we share some views, we oppose others, we agree a little sometimes but not fully, or we completely don’t understand/agree, etc etc.

    So I would suggest that the name be changed to something more neutral, open and inclusive that is in no way defamatory or favouring to any individual or group - nor “taking sides”.

    What do you think?

    With love for all,
    friend
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