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sex abuse scandal, Part II
  • VeritasVeritas May 2011
    Posts: 218
    This one is on the empire's politics.

    It adresses those, who eagerly try to discredit, threaten and ridicule
    the victims, that have published their testimonies.

    Here is a small introduction for all, who have no knowledge of the actions, that
    have been taken by "big orange's" followers (I presume at least with his knowledge,
    if not on his instruction).
    Intimate and personal information, that has been collected about those, who
    shared their experiences of "big orange's" abuse, is being used to create images
    of abnormal personalities. Facts are mixed with fiction and mingled into a bucket
    of slurry.
    These buckets are systematicly poured over the mentioned individuals.

    So here it comes, these lines are for those, guilty in taking part in this campain,
    those who consider themselfes as "big orange's" elite troup.
    I suppose you do know what "big orange" is guilty of. So how can your actions
    be understood?
    Is it because you yourself are far too much involved in the whole thing? Do you fear,
    that you will go down with your master? Is that the reason, you feel that you have
    to take these desperate efforts? Would the thought, that all, that you have sacrificed
    for your belief, was in vain, be too painful to face? Is this the real driving force behind
    your actions? Or is your fear of "big orange" so big, that you act this way, even though
    your innermost self tells you, that it is wrong?
    Putting all possibilities together, just shows one thing: The base of your actions is your
    very own fear. Become aware of that, wake up!

    Just in case your actions are based on the believe, that "big orange" is innocent and
    you think, you are the righteous disciple, that has to save her/his messiah from crucifiction,
    then the base of your action is to be sought elsewhere.
    So you did as he told you, you shut your eyes and your ears - and your brain. There is nothing,
    that could be said here. Sooner or later you will land hard, very, very hard. Your choice.
    Just one thing: how does the Yoga-path comply to the methods that are used in your fight?
    You do consider yourself a "Yogi", don't you? Chew on that.

    One thing you should know, actions like this are clear indicators, that we are dealing with a
    cult. Trying to fight criticism by ridiculement is just classic. And you know what? The harder
    you try, the dirtier you play, the more you piss off people like Roman, Falseswamiji and many
    others. The more determined they become to take you down. You can bet on that.
    Consider this a friendly advice.

    Veritas, soldier of the "Roman empire"
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    This website may be interesting for some: http://www.icsahome.com/

    ICSA is the abbreviation of International Cultic Studies Organisation. Their mission is to apply research and professional perspectives on cultic groups to educate the public and help those who have been harmed.
  • angel May 2011
    Posts: 0
    When you have awoken, you may find yourself in a smouldering place, the very place you are creating with your bad words and abuse.
    i have one question, to those who are accusing XXXXX of abuse, which He certainly would NOT do, are you not doing the same thing with this website? Are you not doing the very same thing your accusing?

    Further, those who clearly have some issues with YIDL should think about what it has offered the world, forget the people you may have a personal dislike to and look at the therapy of the System, how many people it has helped, look at the charitable work that has been done, the immense amount of people whom the system has brought solace too. Are you trying to make all those people miserable again, that is a terrible Karma, that you cannot escape.

    It doesn't matter how right you think you are, even though you all writing here are none of the alleged abused girls (which is rather ironic really) you will one day live with the consequences of your actions.

    Master would never abuse anyone, anyone close to Him would testify to that.

    Another interesting thing is that all positive comments have the user deleted, why is that?
    i don't think this is a two sided forum at all, i'm sure if you knew how to remove the comments you would do that too, or are probably finding out how right now.
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @angel: thanks for your contribution, it's most welcome and you will probably get a lot of reactions. There is a reason why many positive comments have the user deleted, but Roman can explain that to you better .

    I have the impression you are a sincere person and you truly believe XXXXX is innocent, so I like to treat you with respect. A few months ago I thought as highly about XXXXX as you still do now, but so much has come out ever since that I don't believe in ostrich politics anymore. All the testimonies look very credible to me. And further, I have started using my common sense with all that I read.

    I want to ask you just one question: do you consider XXXXX a sannyasi? If so, please look at the definition of a sannyasi on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sannyasa#Lifestyle_and_goals

    One of the things that are written there is "The sannyasi lives a celibate life WITHOUT POSSESSIONS." Are you aware that XXXXX owns a house in Prague? If you are not aware of it, please ask the Czech YIDL-devotees. Some claim that he got the house after becoming the adopted son of a devotee. He supposedly would have asked her to adopt him, and snatched away the house from her stepdaughter that way. He even went to court for that, they say, and won.

    Even if that's not true, how do you explain that a sannyasi has a big luxurious house in a upscale neighbourhood? To me, XXXXX looks like the opposite of a sannyasi. Think about it please, I'm looking forward to your reply.
  • someonefromhungary May 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @angel:

    dear angel,

    welcome here.

    some usernames have been deleted because of two reasons: either the user asked it to be deleted or the email address the user gave was not giving the appropriate response to the welcome message. (you can find related comments by various users and by admin in various topics.)

    none of the comments of any users (including deleted users) have been deleted unless specifically asked by the users themselves.

    I have been reading and downloading the contents of this forum quite regularly for several weeks now, and I am almost 100% sure nothing was deleted unless asked for it by the user and nothing was edited unless required by the rules of engagment.

    I hope, most of us are here with the aim of discussing and are ready to hear opinions we might not agree with. unfortunately, passion takes over sometimes, suggestions to ignore this or that person and discrediting labels are flying from here and from there... but as far as I could see, noone's right to freedom of speech has ever been violated here.

    what you say about the positive things yidl created, I agree.
    but may I ask whether helping thousands of people would absolve someone as regards one abuse or a few abuses? if I saved hundreds of people in an accident or what not but killed someone (not accidentally and not for the sake of saving my own life or other's lfe) in the same accident or whenever after... would you say I am not guilty for killing that only one?
    and may I ask what you would do if you were abused or you were direct witness to abuses?

    and as a matter of fact some of the women giving testimonies have participated in this forum.

    and yes... whether I decide to believe this women or to believe swAmi, it's my "deed", it's my "karma"... and I take full responsibility for that, and yes, I am the one who bears and will bear (most of) the consequences of that. and I very much hope that noone follows me and noone makes his/her decision based only on what I say or how I act.

    all the best to you,
  • mangal May 2011
    Posts: 489
    Reply to @angel: Can you tell us in detail what charitable work has been done. I think it is a bit overvalued if i compare it with huge amount of money which was collected in West and sent to East.....Maybe most of this money was used just for building in desert....What i mean? I think that in yidl is very common mantra-we need your money for projects-if you dont have enough-you must stay outside, but for what is the huge money spend?
  • admin May 2011
    Posts: 61
    Reply to @angel:
    Let me clarify the “Deleted Users” occurrence again. When we started this forum, we had an option to sign in as anonymous user 1 – 5 and also we were not concerned about validity of emails of those who sign up as users. We were trying to make as open as possible. Then we got hacked. Whoever it was (maybe not even anybody associated with YIDL) didn’t get too far but we could determine that somebody was definitely in some parts of the site. Our anti-hacking expert determined that one of the steps to make the site a fortress was to stop with the anonymous users (their emails were actually emails of this server) and also as the minimal check on the users to make sure that their email address doesn’t return as non-existent. I know that it can happen for other reasons, not necessarily that the mail does not exist, but the other alternative is to prolong the sign-in process with the user applicant having to wait for confirmation email and at the end we would end up with the same result. My question is: How come that only the “positive applicants” return as undeliverable? We don’t try to hunt anybody down. We could not do it even if we wanted. It’s illegal. You go to jail for that. Dear friends, you are protected by law, not the universal or divine law. It is the privacy law. We are not stupid and believe or not, we are not malicious or evil (you may think otherwise and I respect your right to do that). And I assure you that before I delete a user, I double/triple check it. I cannot send them email (it’s non-existent) so I communicate the problem to them through the private messaging system of this site. And I delete just the user account, not any of their comments. So all you are loosing is to know what was some made up name of somebody somewhere, which is not really that important. And it’s very easy to fix. Go to hotmail, gmail etc and set up a real email account. Use xyz246@...... And that’s it. You don’t have to go to check the mail there, I won’t be sending you any emails after your registration goes through. I hope this clarifies your concern. And because we haven't received your email as undeliverable, you are fine and this forum is your forum as anybody else's. Thank you for participating in this discussion.

  • PallasAthene May 2011
    Posts: 246
    reply to@angel:
    When i am awoken perhaps I will find myself in a smouldering place. Ok, if it should be like that i will endure this. I have no fear because i know that life is good to me and all has his price. I could not sleep if any further young girl has to suffer because my ego wants to live in permanent peace and happiness. Of course it is fine to be at that level but not at any price.

    You are talking about karma. I think that the abuse theme is a karmic theme in our century. Look arround and you can see that all religious streams are touched by this issue. I hope that people will understand that there is a different between the truth and the institutions. The energy which gives us life will remain independently from any institution. Institutions should understand that they have to meet people at eye level.

    That’s of course a matter of opinion and should not make your day.
  • someonefromhungary May 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @PallasAthene: well, it made my day already, can't help it :) :) :)... especially by this: "I could not sleep if any further young girl has to suffer because my ego wants to live in permanent peace and happiness"...
  • pavitra May 2011
    Posts: 270
    Thank you Angel for joining the discussion. I'm a close friend of one of the victims and can testify that she is telling the truth. She was sexually abused by the Big Orange swAmi. I wasn't there when the sexual abuses happened but can testify many details about the timing, the circumstances and her struggles and suffering with the whole situation all over the years. I would really like to ask you why you think you cannot believe to the testimonies of the abused devotees. It is because you are so convinced that swAmi cannot do it or because you think that the testimonies are not reliable?
    I wanted also to reassure you that the people that got some health and psychological benefits from practising in yidl system will not lose anything if the system will be cleared up of all the negativities that have grown inside (abuses, collecting money from naive people, slavery, brainwashing...). The first step for all people was to be aware of some problem and the benefits came from practising yoga techniques that are thousands of years old and they could get access in many yoga schools and books. You don't need to be scary facing the truth. We are all grown up and can stay on our own feet. Just to remind you again that this wasn't the case for the abused girls.
  • John_Sceptic May 2011
    Posts: 30
    Here's what every Yoga board member should read:
    What are the legal responsibilities of nonprofit boards?
    By: BoardSource

    Under well-established principles of nonprofit corporation law, a board member must meet certain standards of conduct and attention in carrying out his or her responsibilities to the organization. Several states have statutes adopting some variation of these duties which would be used in court to determine whether a board member acted improperly. These standards are usually described as the duty of care, the duty of loyalty and the duty of obedience.

    Duty of Care
    The duty of care describes the level of competence that is expected of a board member, and is commonly expressed as the duty of "care that an ordinarily prudent person would exercise in a like position and under similar circumstances." This means that a board member owes the duty to exercise reasonable care when he or she makes a decision as a steward of the organization.

    Duty of Loyalty
    The duty of loyalty is a standard of faithfulness; a board member must give undivided allegiance when making decisions affecting the organization. This means that a board member can never use information obtained as a member for personal gain, but must act in the best interests of the organization.

    Duty of Obedience
    The duty of obedience requires board members to be faithful to the organization's mission. They are not permitted to act in a way that is inconsistent with the central goals of the organization. A basis for this rule lies in the public's trust that the organization will manage donated funds to fulfill the organization's mission.

    With Australia ready to be "taken over", I think the new Yoga Board members should ask themselves some serious questions, I know I would! Please don't do what Dr Michael Goldstein did: He went up to Sai Baba (the alleged perpetrator) and asked him: "Did you do it?" Sai Baba said: "No", and Dr Goldstein went away, satisfied with the answer and with his little shimmering golden world intact.
  • alwayslookwithin May 2011
    Posts: 0
    i just want to make a few comments, totally believing that they will be shot down like all positive stuff that goes on here, which is weird but here i go;
    In Europe the XXXXX The System is used as a therapy in several clinics, hospitals and rehabilitation centres, several people, many thousands and more have received the help they needed to regain the ability to walk, to move and to be mobile again from 'The System' used as a therapy. Surveys and studies with groups around the world have proven the effectiveness of The System and so i do believe that the world has received immense help by the life of Paramhans Swami.

    In the lives of each disciple and practitioner, whether or not they are now anti have been benefited by the practices. Certainly each and every person who has practiced the system has received clarity of mind, peace in their heart and so on. All students of the System have made these comments and more, the only complaint ever is that it's 'too slow' for some. To me that is an amazing system and the quality of teachers around the world and the number is substantial, all giving their thanks in turn to their teacher, Paramhans Swami.

    I will not mention many of the other works, for which i am not so sure about, but i do believe there are many, and they continue to help thousands of people. Whether a small angry portion of people are upset does not effect the power and wonder of what XXXXX can do for people, and has done, it IS a Master System and no-one's words or deeds can change that.

    As a professional in the Health arena myself, i can only give gratitude and thanks to H.H for the knowledge i have gained that has helped my clients to change their lives for the better, i am literally surrounded by such people. Those who have transformed their lives for the better, into healthy and positive examples, all by the work of H.H.

    No mater what, I owe a debt of gratitude to my Master, and am using this forum as an opportunity to say just that.

    Thank you.

  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @alwayslookwithin: swAmi has got his techniques from other yoga-systems, mainly Satyananda (R)-yoga (no wonder that they started the copyright, with people like swAmi stealing their stuff). Asanas and pranayamas work, yes they do, that's the ancient practice of yoga. Do we need YIDL for that? My answer is no.

    It's good that YIDL brought yoga to some people that might have otherwise not get in touch with it, but does it give an excuse for the abuses? My answer is no.

    And the YIDL-system is not that genius, I think, you don't have to be an Einstein to 'design' it.

    It's okay to be grateful when someone learns us something, but don't forget swAmi got paid well for that. He was just doing his job in that sense, and the other people that made the system with him too. In other senses 'H.H.' was abusing his authority.
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    Reply to @alwayslookwithin:
    No comments get shot down here. The problem is that certain people are so paranoid that they cannot provide just normal email address (even without name indicating their real identity). I am getting really tired of this non-issue being turned into an issue. Your master does not talk to anybody openly. So how can you trust an open forum? Therefore, use any email you like and if somebody sues you, it’s not our problem. Read the SIGN IN INSTRUCTIONS in the upper heading. You, alwayslookwithin, are actually fine. You used some existing email and that is all what’s to it. Thank you.

  • John_Sceptic May 2011
    Posts: 30
    To alwayslookwithin: Well, you are brave to come here: Three forums have been closed already: A Slovenian, a Croatian, and a German one. The posts on those forums were quite aggressive, and I'm glad they got shut down. You sound like a person who could be on the Yoga "board"? If you are, please consider this: What if the allegations are true? You have a "duty of care" to anyone who comes to the organisation.
    If the Swami is innocent, then it really is a very terrible situation: Poor Swami, how could he every prove his innocence? It's really impossible. If he is innocent, then I hope to God that his accusers will be exposed for the liars they are.
    If, on the other hand, the Swami is guilty, how could you find out? One starting point, I suppose, would be to contact 6 victims from the Abuse Site. If they refuse to talk...well, you can dust the altar and put the Swami's picture back again live happily ever after.
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] May 2011
    Posts: 0
    John it is not so simple, unfortunately, consider that even if somebody tells you something, it may or not be truth. You know that on many legal cases there are so many experts who are call by the court to give their expertise about especially sex abuse. There is so many cases where it was found out that „victims“ had „false memories“. This memories are for them as real as all their memories based on reality. So many cases in USA and around the world about grown up children accusing their parents about sex abuse when they were younger turns up as false. (Roman's army- I am not saying that they are crazy, it is not mental disease!) I will not write here about that because „Roman's army“ will post 1000 post to tell me how wrong and not sensitive I am, so google about that subject if you want. And second, hate is most powerful force in the universe because it is second side of the love, so some of them maybe are not speaking the truth in purpose. I don't know, I am not expert. So are not Australian board members or any other board member. I am just saying that even if somebody goes and talk with those girls, it still doesn't prove anything.
    And yes Roman's army, I don't trust your intentions as many before me here (after all yours aggressive threat) so I am not giving my real name or mail address to you.
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] May 2011
    Posts: 0
    Reply to @member:
    I am not replaying to my self :-)...one thing I want to add:
    on thing more I forgot to mention...about false memories, there is one interesting thing...it was documentary on BBC about witches from Salem. One of the first false memory cases on court was actually witch trial in Salem and in some other towns and villages at that time. There was first one young girl accusing her step mother of witchcraft (because she didn’t like her). After her, one by one girls were talking about their experiences and avalanche started. On the end there was group of maybe 10 young girl witnesses who were telling their stories on the court. And it was really convincingly how they were describing some women flying trough the window in night and try to take her to the devil or do some other demonic stuff (some stuff connected to sex also), because those girls were not liars they were convicted that it was for real (well, at least some of them, maybe few were enjoying power or revenge to some step mother or neighbor). Many women finished you know how based on these testimonies. Poor ladies, nobody think twice about how was her life and behavior till that moment, they could be angel of mercy and mother Therese in one body till that day, they and up in fire just like that. Nowadays most such cases are children accusing their parents of sex abuse, but thanks Good, this is today and court take this possibility in consideration. Roman’s army - I am not saying that this must be it with your girls, I am not expert on that subject, but it is something to think about. There is no assurance that if somebody is speaking to you very convincingly is telling the truth, that is all.
  • VeritasVeritas May 2011
    Posts: 218
    Reply to @member:
    I will tell that to the policeman, next time I get a ticket for speeding.
    Thanks a lot, I'm sure it will work.
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @member: keep on thinking and trying to find the truth. I have been in doubt too, just like you, but I'm very much convinced now that swAmi has a very dark side in him, which he doesn't want the public to know of. After looking at all that had come to the surface, and learning more about cult mechanisms (unless you are very familiar with the signs of a cult, you can't see it from the outside), my only conclusion could be: if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it must be a duck.

    And coming back to your previous post, what aggressive threat are you talking about? Has someone threatened you? I'm not giving my name and e-mail address either, I'm also a little worried, not of 'Roman's army' (that name is only a joke), but of (cyber-)attacks by 'the empire'. But please, don't see me as an enemy, I don't see you that way either.
  • someonefromhungary May 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @member:
    dear member,

    I fully understand what you say about the witches of salem.
    and you're right, one who has no direct experience to rely on should not exclude such a possibility either.

    my intuition tells me to rather believe these women, but my intuition is my problem. :D :( :D :( :D

    and my definite dissatisfaction with the way swAmi and yidl seem to handle the situation and the conclusions I am drawing from this are also my problems.

    you are right in the sense that talking to these women by board members would not necessarily prove (legally or otherwise) anything either... however, the apparent unwillingness to start any kind of sincere discussion or investigation from the part of almost all organisers and swAmi indicates something to me. if nothing else then the lack of sufficient wisdom, freedoom, sincerity, openness, fearlessness and capacity to manage conflicts in an "enligthened" way... and when I say sufficient, it means sufficient for me.... and that's why I don't even have to make my decisions any more on the basis of whether I believe these women and others complaining about various things, or not...

    it's just the fact that... should I ever have a serious complaint about swAmi, I wouldn't like to be handled like this... I wouldn't like to hear people saying that I MUST be mistaken/liar/asura/schizo etc. PER DEFINITION, simply because swAmi couldn't have done such a thing... (and I would not want to hear threats about the "bad karma" resulting from anyone accusing his/her master...)

    though I fully understand that this is the "normal" reaction of a devotee... this is the reaction of anyone who deeply loves and trusts someone and this person gets accused... and if the beloved and trusted person is also seen as something absolute... then it becomes this everyday "hidden religous war" between people, for example about absolute and relative... I believe and, therefore, I say that nothing/noone is absolute in the sense that would justify this PER DEFINITION situation, and another person believes and, therefore, says that he/she is absolutely convinced (based on his/her own experiences) that swAmi, or this or that master is such an "absolute being" (or god or anything equivalent)...
    and we may never reach a compromise :D :( :D
    what to do?

    even if we might disagree, I thank you for participating in this forum and wish you all the best,
  • batawebatawe May 2011
    Posts: 409
    Reply to @someonefromhungary: you said it nicely!
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    Reply to @member:
    Point me to any aggressive threat against somebody on this forum, please my dear. I can tell you that I've seen really aggressive threats being send by your respective members to certain people. If somebody threatened me like that I would have police following up. What you see here at this forum is called “discourse”. Not everybody has to agree with you. It’s fine with me if people disagree with me. I have to give you a credit that you at least had the guts to come and say what you believe in. As of now, your fake email is your problem. I am not going to listen to more complaints about deleted users. You can be here with any email you like. But if google or hotmail or yahoo sue you, not my problem. All of you are talking about karma. You are pathetic. Although you can sense that I don’t like you, I still appreciate that you are bringing your angle to this discussion. Take care,

  • SunYaC May 2011
    Posts: 41
    Reply to @alwayslookwithin:

    I very much understand your sense of gratitude and indebtedness to swAmi. I have very similar feelings. Yes, by some karmic twist of fate (his own words) we came to swAmi and our following of his system could give us a lot. But in case he commited such perversities like the sex with his innocent and trusting young female followers then it is time to take off the rose coloured glasses and try to see the things as they really are.

    Dear alwayslookwithin, tell me what would you think if one is very nice father who is otherwise kind and caring of his children but one day he goes mad and rapes his little daughter. Will you excuse him because the other days he takes care of his other children very nicely? Will you overlook his bad deed because he does many good things for them in other respects?

    Yes, the swAmi did many good things for thousands of people. But that doesn't mean we should excuse him if he commited certain bad things.

    Another example comes to my mind. Even today this is exactly the argument of my grand parents. They are actually good but quite naive people who for all their life just sincerely worked and blindly believed in communism. And now when the discussion with them sometimes comes to former communist regime, they always say that the communism was in fact good because "during the communist era there were many good things done for the people and for the country (many houses, hospitals and factories were built, the health care was for free, there was no unemployment, and so on...)". Yes, they are definitely right. There were many good things done by the regime. But is this the excuse for all the evil commited in the name of communism? I'm affraid it's not. Despite all those good things the fact remains that communist leaders were not nice and kind altruists but rather self-centered power enjoying monsters and serial killers. In the disguise of public welfare they were doing so many nasty and disgusting things seeking their own selfish profits.

    Yes, it is necessary to always look within. Within the core and substance of things. Only then we can see the naked truth. Only then we can see the evil with gold facade as evil with gold facade and nothing more...

    Please, try to understand that all the inarguable benefits of yoga for thousands of people around the world thanks to following YiDL system are not excuse for misbehaving of it's founder behind the courtain. By the way the same benefits you can personally get by following any other original yoga system. But next time it would be better to try to choose some teacher who doesn't lie about his spiritual achievements and renunciation.
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @SunYaC: Good comparison you are making of YIDL with communism. The two worked together very well in the seventies and eighties, didn't they? They both had their achievements, but the core was rotten.

    The Western-European countries with the Rhineland model had the same social achievements, or actually much more more, and without the tyranny.
    In the same way other yoga-systems have the same good results, or maybe better, and without the abuses.

    There's an interesting article about yoga behind the iron curtain, in which swAmi is also mentioned: http://www.himalayaninstitute.org/yi/Article.aspx?id=3169
  • SunYaC May 2011
    Posts: 41
    Reply to @truthseeker: Oh, now I see we posted parallel answers to alwayslookwithin at almost the same time :) I absolutelly agree with you, but you are more brief and to the point as usually ;)

    Btw thank you, truthseeker, for your positive words in some other thread where you asked me to reveal more details about my present spiritual life... I didn't manage to answer you before the thread was quickly closed by admin and so I considered it to be the sign that I should keep this as my "secret" ;) I don't want to use this forum as advertisement media for any other spiritual path or group. Moreover, I'm completely sure that when one sincerely desires to find genuine spiritual knowledge and not to be cheated again, then the Supreme Lord will arrange his life in such a way, that sooner or later he meets the real guru who doesn't soft-soap his disciples by cheap and easy-to-follow teachings and sweet talks :) In my posts I just wanted to touch this topic for the people who after the experience with swAmi tend to think there are no genuine spiritual teachers in the world at all. They definitely exist. We just need to develop the desire in our heart to find genuine guru and not to be cheated again by some other false swami. It all really depends only on our inner desire to attain the Supreme Truth and also on our willingness to follow such a bona fide master who will not lie to us or tell us just all-pleasant things for the sake of accumulating masses of "easy followers". We must be willing to accept also not too pleasant preaching from the spiritual teacher. Real spiritual teacher calls things as they are and doesn't always have just full mouth of "how much he loves us". We must be ready to accept also heavy and hard-to-digest statements from him. Genuine spiritual master sometimes demonstrates his compassion also by very sharp words by which he effectively cuts away our ignorance, material attachements and so on. It is one of the points which help us to recognize genuine spiritual master and I forgot to mention this in my previous posts :) But to be able to surrender to such a teacher also requires to throw away our pride and ego. Briefly, as one (japanese?) proverb says: "When the disciple is ready, the master will appear." To find him we only need to really want the real and not the false. When we have such desire in our heart, everything else will be arranged then by superior power ;) So I'm sorry, but rather I would stay on the general platform without telling more specific facts about the path I'm following now. And thank you again for your kind and appreciative reactions :)
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @SunYaC: thanks for your reply, I completely understand you don't want to go into detail about your spiritual path, it's probably better that you don't. But I would like to know, do you consider your teacher as someone you have to be submissive to and revere, and is he thought to have supernatural powers? In that case, I would like to say to you: 'beware'. I have become totally against the whole concept of Godmen, I think it can only lead to dysfunctional relations between the master and the student.

    Btw, I though you answer to alwayslookwithin was also very good.
  • mangotree May 2011
    Posts: 118
    Reply to @truthseeker:
    not my question to answer but i just read this and so thought to post it as it so relates to your concern. The writer is making commentary on the Yoga Vasishta regarding its teachings on the link between self effort and faith. If you can set aside the "Godmen" label for a while and simply think of "teacher" maybe this will sound a reasonable perspective:

    "As enquiry becomes more and more intense, layer after layer of the truth is revealed in a very different way. Not as a gratuitous gift. It is the intensity of self-effort that makes the discovery possible and what you discover for yourself is something profound and fantastic.

    Only when this discovery is made do we have real, true faith. Otherwise the faith that we have is usually just a belief, a big lie, and if somebody touches that belief with a feather, it shatters. Faith is when you engage youreslf in intense self-effort. It is then that the truth shines and it is unmistakable.

    What about gurus and scriptures and so on? Are they necessary, are they indespensable, are they useful? As a matter of fact, in the Yoga Vasishta these discussions are minimal because the situation in which the teachings are given is a guru-disciple relationship. The guru, Vasishta, is discoursing to Rama, the disciple and others. So the concept of the guru is not ridiculed but there is an insistence upon self-effort and not depending on somebody or something else. Therefore the master says: "The teacher and the scriptures are not indispensable, but the realisation of truth is not had without their help" - a double negative. So make use of them in an intelligent way, not subjecting yourself slavishly to them nor arrogating to yourself the ability to do without them.

    It is a very intelligent approach if one understands this. Though your effort was inspired by the guru and the scriptures, if it is intelligently directed, there is no blind dependence. Such self-effort enables the truth to be discovered afresh by each one of you. Then true faith arises. But if you accept blindly the conclusion of the teachers or the scriptures as if they are your own, you have done nothing. They are not your truths and therefore they have no valitidy or strength whatsoever, and you have no faith. If at some stage the conclusions prove to be slightly unreliable, everything comes crashing down and you are lost beneath the debris. However, if the truth was properly and intelligently understood and the discovery made your own, you will probably carrry on even if the master has crashed."

    Swami Venkatesananda, Multiple Reflections.
  • someonefromhungary May 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @mangotree: :) :) :)
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @mangotree: The article sheds a different light at the guru-disciple relationship, so maybe it can be all right in some cases.
    I see swami Venkatesananda was a student of swami Sivananda, like swami Satyananda Saraswati. Students of Sivananda seem to be fairly okay.
  • SunYaC May 2011
    Posts: 41
    Reply to @truthseeker: No, my teacher is not thought to have supernatural powers :) In fact in our tradition it is considered to be the obstacle on the spiritual path to have some siddhis.. Although it has something to do with mastering the matter and its energies on very subtle level, still it is just material achievement which besides includes great risk of misusing it for our own sense enjoyment. Instead of helping one in spiritual progress, which apart from other things means to withdraw oneself from the matter and renew his original position in the spiritual realm as the eternal servant of God, the siddhis can rather distract him from the spiritual path, offering him many extra possibilities to enjoy the matter and to play "God" himself here in the material world instead of re-establishing himself as surrendered soul of the real God in the spiritual world. There is nothing truly spiritual in siddhis.

    On the other hand, if the spiritual master is genuine devotee of the Lord (which means he meets and fulfils all the criteria I mentioned in my previous posts) then he is to be revered as such. According to Vedas without devotion to the pure devotee of the Lord and following him there is no devotion to the Lord Himself. Surrender to the genuine spiritual master is necessary because that is exactly the way how the spiritual knowledge is passed on in this world. But it doesn't mean blind following. The master has to be tested if he is really qualified genuine spiritual teacher. If yes, then he is revered as the devotee of his own spiritual master and servant of the Lord, but not claimed or believed to be the Lord.. And as soon as he (possibly) deviates from the conclusions of the Vedas and from the teachings/following of his own spiritual master, he cannot be considered and revered as spiritual master anymore and must be rejected. In our tradition this is very well secured and guarded..

    But I understand your scepticism and disbelief in the concept of the Godmen, because in this age we can see there are many more cheaters in the disguise of gurus than real gurus... Thanks to such 'masters' as 'our' swAmi people are becoming even more sceptical and later on they turn away from spiritual life. And that is the biggest crime of these gurus.. But real gurus still exist too :)
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