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Lineage of spiritual masters.
  • truthseeker June 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @satfinder: so if swAmi is really devoted to Mahatma Gandhi, I expect him to put out a public statement that he distances himself from Baba Ramdev and the RSS.

    If he doesn't, I consider him to be a supporter of Ramdev's and the RSS's violent, hindu-extremist world view and actions.
  • Ivan June 2011
    Posts: 161
    Recently I came from a trip which covered most of the north India and I can tell that Ramdev was on every single corner and on every single billboard. He is huge, widely popular and his rhetoric really is hindutvā. While I was in Delhi there were demonstrations of Ramdev's followers against foreign goods in stores. However check out the last photo on this page: http://www.yogaindailylife.org/news/yoga-sadhana-at-kumbha-mela-2010-haridwar
    That's outrageous, they (swAmi usually picks photos personally) put there a photo where Ramdev is bowing to swAmi... This is an example of fine manipulation with pictures: "look, the most popular guru in India is bowing to swAmi, so swAmi is even bigger". On YIDL everything serves as a pictorial representation serving only one goal: to manipulate.
  • PallasAthene June 2011
    Posts: 246
    Reply to @Ivan:hoe :)

    Watch these two guys behind him and bowing Ramdev. The expression of their eyes tells us much more than any mouth could do. To me the background and surroundings of a picture are much more worth seeing than the actors in the frontline. The problem of picking out personally is the focus you may have.
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    What do you guys/girls have to say on the saying, and I think it is written in the "meetings with a yogi" or somewhere, that everybody who gets the mantra from Swami is his disciple (eternally);

    or just few thoughts on the bond of guru-disciple; it is also said you have Rna (debt) to your Guru like to parents etc...just to hear what you think on this topic...

    and as I have written already before, doesn't it mean that for those who still repeat the mantra, isn't the mantra a link to this whole lineage/mental concentration/subconscious 'programming'...

    they all speak it extends even beyond death; is the approach to the Master final?..once you get into the 'club', you're in it...like joining the gang; once you're "in " you'll not get out so easy...?

    Theoretically, fictionally, astrally;), or whatever...I would like to hear your point of view...if you remember the words: "...with your free will you came and with your free will you can go, but sooner or later you will come back to Me"...and what about the prayer after mantra initiation, of giving your body, mind and soul to "that something"...

    it sounds almost like a contract, but if the contract would be printed in the written word, I think it would be a thing to think twice before signing...

    in fact it sounds strange...it appears as if you have a choice, but the same choice is no choice at all...according to what is said...
  • someonefromcroatia June 2011
    Posts: 23
    Reply to @batawe:

    I believe that is equivalent of providing archetypal ideal from sastra, that you accept somebody awaken, he initiates you, gives birth to you so to say, so he would take care of you for your growing up(liberation) no matter what, like a loving father. It cannot and should not include abuse, and that is what you imply by lack of free will. Abuse implies lack of free will.

    First of all you have free will by going, accepting, leaving and whatsoever. So it cannot be denied.

    However it implies something very positive and forgiving and caring for you. So as an ideal it is good. And of course you can accept foster father. There is no jealousy there.

    In ideal, I repeat. People who write those things are usually idealists, and then those that learn how to "swim in the water" of somebodies faith come, and use it and abuse it.

    So if you wish to live in ideal keep your eyes open. Many of the stories were also written to control. We have a mix up.

    Use your common sense. What would you do in such a situation? If you were good you would not like to control, nor take slaves by denying free will, nor take their joy. Quite the opposite. Giving life, not taking.

    Is it somewhere available? Who knows? There are nice people everywhere so probably in the religious circles also. However numbers and influence tend to corrupt. So where to look?

    I guess, stop looking and try living.
  • VeritasVeritas June 2011
    Posts: 218
    Reply to @batawe:
    Interesting question, batawe. Not easy to answer, as all answers are basically funded on believe.
    We would have various possible scenarios, I am going to list some of them:

    A) All is physical, there is nothing beyond the physical. Therefore the question is obsolete.

    B) All is like it is told, you made a pact that you can not cancel. You are bound to him till kingdom come. Here it splits up in
    1) he is divine and having signed the contract, ensures you to be saved.
    2) he is evil and you signed a "faustian pact" with the devil, you have lost your soul and are cursed to follow him till the very end.
    3) he is neither of them, just a human with good qualities and flaws. But then it would not go in category B, more to:

    C) There are astral connections to one another, these connections draw you together, for good or for bad. There is no contract, it is just a matter of energy. Using the power of free will, one can become able to cut these connections in an act of addressed will and power. Forgiveness is considered a major key in cutting entanglements.

    D) You create your reality according to your convictions and believes. If you believe in these bonds, you are bonded. (Extremely simplyfied)

    This list is by far not complete and I am sure, there are lots more of possible explainations.
  • Roman June 2011
    Posts: 347
    Reply to @batawe:

    "...with your free will you came and with your free will you can go, but sooner or later you will come back to Me"...and what about the prayer after mantra initiation, of giving your body, mind and soul to "that something"...

    Yes, I’ve heard that one before. I was reminded of that by several people including the boss when I was leaving. You are supposed to be loyal regardless what happens because you need the king. In reality actually king needs you to die for him on the battlefield. If you turn against the king you get usually executed. Here you get something much worst – the worst karmas you can imagine. The threat is real for many people who believe. Therefore they cling to loyalty out of that fear. My opinion is that it is really brainwashing, fear tactics and it takes away the individual’s power to think for themselves. With swAmi it was always clear that he was the master and no disciple ever can become equal or even something higher. Here it is where the “father” analogy fails. Every good and loving father is more than happy if his son or daughter rise above him and become fully independent. It will make him proud and his life worthy. Because real father will do all what is the best for his children. That may be a little bit idealistic too, I myself have to admit. There are good and there are not so good fathers and all shades of gray in between. But shouldn’t be this “father for eternity” one of those better ones? I myself do not believe in any need of any guru whatsoever. But if somebody does, they should really hold their master to the highest standard. Not just nice smiles and sweet talk every once a while.
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    I appreciate your answer...and I agree that the 'threat' is something which doesn't help, that is, when the fear appears, if it appears, of what will happen if I leave etc...

    but still, truth or not, when someone says: "you have free will but you will come back to me", it probably means not only body, but in a sense "your soul belongs to Me"; now, not to go into details of what is soul etc.,

    but this 'remnant' or better 'surplus' of the body, the trancendental part of it, the spirit, the soul or whatever you want to call it (and supposedly we all have individual copy of it; so if Peter goes to heaven, there will be exact duplicate of ethereal Peter there, with the butt of course) - and as much as it appears beneficial and divine and protecting, and seems as a 'thing', which will transport you into the highest worlds (we all want to be saved and not wander across the universe etc. -

    in this sense there must or should exist some sort of buddhist, christian, jewish, hindu etc. clusters, regions, on the level of relative cosmic or divine Truth; christians must go to christian heaven not to sivaloka etc.) - and they all say: "Worship my Father, who is the Truth";

    it suggests that you are bound to something which you have already 'signed up to', and now you belong to that cluster, where the mutual psychic or soul entity is forming itself, trying to survive in the universe as a group of collective-soul-consciousness, if you go solo, you are lost...;

    is this the fight for the souls? are we as individuals important or are we just 'food' for the big eagle of the universe?
  • someonefromcroatia June 2011
    Posts: 23
    Reply to @batawe:

    If we speak of contracts you have obligations on both sides. So the other side should provide and display nonviolence, nonstealing, truth, mercy etc.

    So if the other side does not follow the contractual agreements, how can contract stand in its terms, and why should you follow it?

    Also beyond contracts there are constitutional rights which no contract can breach. Take that analogy to spirituality.

    Regarding the places souls go, where will the souls of SvAmi's followers go when in one place in lilamrit regarding the prophecies of the great one, it says that svAmi will descend from Satyaloka, and in another prophecy that he is one of the seven rshis descending?

    If you know Indian mythology you know that seven rishis reside in sapta rishi loka near pole star, not in satyaloka place of Brahma.

    ???

    We must have truth on the other side for the so called contract to work.


    However I do not believe in contracts the way you put it.

    Who cares of the contracts the way you put it, actually? This ain't no business. I think its the thing of the heart. And if you have innocence of a child you will feel when there is something very wrong going on. So even if you cannot rationalize it you will feel it. Regarding bhakti-yoga.

    For knowledge you need truth. Then also truth will set you free, not some belief based in superstition or fear or falsity. We may strive for truth, and start discovering it in parts step by step. Nobody has full knowledge of it in his fist. If somebody claims such and outrageous claim, what can you say? :-)
  • pavitra June 2011
    Posts: 270
    I like to travel on this Earth and I'm not scared of travelling through the universe. Why should we be scared? And if a scary big monster will torture us and swallow our soul, at the end he will have to XXXXX (through the butt of course) and we will be free again.
    From my point of view the mantras are working (if you understand them) as any positive affirmation.
    I think that the mantra initiation is a kind of contract: your guru is giving you the magic key to his special lounge in the universe (I personally was thinking that swAmi owned the whole universe) and you are just happy for ever becoming a small orange spot in the immensity of his orange butt of course.
    This was the deal. It's just a ceremony, the marriage with your beloved prince that will take you to ride on his horse through the infinite space for ever.
    Theoretically during the self-analysing meditation the mantra is working in the same way, it means like an escape mode if you fell in some unpleasant dream or taught. And if we imagine that after the death of our body we will be doing nothing else but meditation, it can be of a great help. At the same time I was imagining that if you get lost this mantra will work as a helpline - you dial it and your guru will come to your rescue.
    I like your question Batawe: would we sign it if it was in written? Many of us would start to read and think before doing it. But the problem is that everything was done and delivered in a highly emotional state. I think that the only one that is completely sober during satsangs and seminars is swAmi. The other people are well prepared in advance to be completely receptive and the repetition of the mantra is part of it. Every time you repeat the mantra, you are saying "I'm yours, I'm surrendering to you completely, I want to become one with you". And this "you" is swAmi, as said in your contract. The problem begins if in the name of the contract he starts to ask for some very specific special services and this before he delivers anything to you (where is the moksha, where is the everlasting happiness?). This is a clear breach of the contract for me.
  • batawebatawe June 2011
    Posts: 409
    yes, I appreciate the answers from Veritas, Someonefromcroatia and Pavitra, and overall I can say, we all don't know really to what "we are in fact SIGNING IN"; like you said Veritas, it is most probably founded on belief...

    I like the possible scenarios that you have written mr. Veritas;), and I totally dislike this devil-contract, in this case "we are fuc--d";)...but I still affirm and stand behind the "free-will argument", that no matter how much you are bound to someone or something, if you don't want to be, the energy of your being automatically revoltes and wants to be free;

    so, in a way, the power to say NO, to negate and deny (even if negation is the negation of affirmation - they are somehow bound together), but still, I can only say, that only some stupid and narrow minded consciousness or spirit or whatever would be trying to hold you down;

    if I see or feel that someone is trying to remove him/her self from my, let's say, suffocating approach or relation to that person and if that person wants to go away, only my narrow stupidity would try to pin this person down, again, to my ego-bastard-consciousness...it means: If I am able to do it; to give someone freedom and let go, whoever wants to go, than what to say about so called higher beings, or, they are not so high, or maybe they are, but their higher ego is more cunning and divinely 'selfish'...

    in that sense, even if god or higher being wants to hold you (speaking hypothetically;), if you want to leave and s/he doesn't let you, than I can only say: "FU..K YOU!"

    so, if there is some 'contract' which binds me:::it would be natural from perspective of 'higher being' to let go...otherwise, I can only say: "I, the being who is supposedly not so high as you, mr or mrs. higher being, I denounce you and your higher divine wisdom, as you don't know how to let go...I let you go, can you let me go too?";)))

    and I like C) and D) points mentioned by Veritas...with belief you give power to it and if you believe you are bonded than you are...

    but if "one really wants to be free", whatever that means...I say, even god stands in your way to your freedom...

    and there are some schools that tried to solve some problems from a different persepective,,in various points very much differing from standard conceptions: par example; that we don't really have a soul and that the soul has to be acquired (4th way -Gurdjieff and Ousepensky), in a similar manner books of Castaneda (is it fact or fiction , I don't know;) speak about the various consciousness clusters in the universe and how to form your individuality and similarly, create your 'soul' so you can create your own 'space' in the universe, otherwise the big eagle devours us all;

    and you have to make a 'deal' with the cosmic Eagle, so that he doesn't devour you and you can even create your 'universe'; I know guys, it sounds like superfiction;), and as Pavitra said, there must be a natural conclusion to that too, when defecating, the Eagle must use the butt too;)
  • someonefromhungary June 2011
    Posts: 334
    I think I never felt as if a contract was made. I can see and understand the analogy but at least from my part it never meant to be a contract-like thing... absolutely not...
    I didn't feel like I was promising anything or undertaking any commitments...
    for me it was for the most part just expressing that after many years of seeing and hearing him in vep and through webcasts/youtube, and accepting him despite/with all those things I didn't like about him... I am ready, he can punch me in the face :)
    so, as expected, mantra diksha didn't change my life much...
    except for fasting once a week, which I was already planning anyways and I just needed somebody to tell me on which days :D
    and of course except for the mantra itself... but with that... hmmm... I think I've always had a paradoxical relationship :D which has not really changed during the past couple of months... I guess it just remained much the same :D
  • mangal June 2011
    Posts: 489
    Reply to @someonefromhungary: Paradoxical relationship? Why not, we can use paradoxical logic (by mr. Fromm). Maybe it is higher level of relationship, the best sadhaka, who looks under man-made cover and finds out reality under mask:) First-xxx is normal man, than xxx is God, than xxx is more than God and than reality comes-who knows what it is?:)
  • someonefromhungary June 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @mangal: yeah, I don't mind paradoxes either :) they seem to be an integral part of this universe/consciousness :)
  • mangal June 2011
    Posts: 489
    Reply to @someonefromhungary: i think so, the world maybe isnt so nice like it was in infantschool, but is more colourfull
  • mangal June 2011
    Posts: 489
    Reply to @PallasAthene: yes, therefore xxx is very nice to the politics, he knows why....indian politics, who spend so much money for weapons, people in country dying with hunger and so on, but india develop new weapons with russia, and they increase they budget by 12 proc. In 2012 they will spend 36 billions dollars for army....do xxx criticise this-not, he loves politics friens.....why-of course in order to have possibility to make charity, clear charity. From Wests money....
  • PallasAthene June 2011
    Posts: 246


    I could not understand that the empire added the following line to their baba statement after a while, using the holy trinity: "Those who saw him were blessed ones, those who heard about him were lucky ones, and those who only tried to find negative qualities in him are lost in darkness."

    Some links to identify specific energies of groups:

    http://www.anandaawareness.com/links.html
    http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/traumatic_abuse.htm
    http://www.thecheers.org/In-The-Ring/article_2889_Spiritual-abuse-cults---why-some-fall-prey.html

    The problem is, as long as you are inside it feels like family and if you are outside you have to face being an outcast. A real family can treat you as an outcast but can never say that you are not a family member.

    To be a member includes certain rights as to critzice or to investigate. Normally that will happen within the family and you have not to leave them because of it. But when there is no family, no real examination on it, than it may run in public.
  • truthseeker June 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @PallasAthene: thanks for the video and the links. They remind us of how evil cults are. In the third link I recognize a lot of YiDL. There's another interesting mini documentary about the Swami Nithyananda Scandal. You can skip the beginning, it really starts at 1:25.



    It's funny that the name of the servant who made the secret Nithyananda sex video is Lenin. :-)
  • speakup July 2011
    Posts: 57
    Reply to @truthseeker: OMG this series is amazing - could just substitute the name! Third clip is Nithyananda giving a lecture and that was really creepy - the way he uses his voice, presence, repeating the same lines - very hypnotic, I had to stop watching! Getting some flashbacks and 'floating' watching that - these bozo cult leaders must go to the same school.
  • tomcody80 June 2011
    Posts: 2
    Does anyone have The Living Light, first version of the Lila amrit that XXXXX wrote? I would very much like to read it. It was mentioned on forum few weeks ago that it contains interesting information. If anyone has it please contact me.
  • mangal July 2011
    Posts: 489
    Reply to @tomcody80: I think, that just hindi XXXuncle version could be usefull. I know, that inner yidl hard core know about this differences and often they take it as their advance-we know, that XXX must change something, but it was just for this mass of disciples, who are not clever like we are -and therefore XXX changed many things in Lila for their good
  • speakup July 2011
    Posts: 57
    Reply to @tomcody80:
    I recently read a copy that was donated to ashram by someone, but I don't currently have it - I returned it. As I recollect it didn't seem to be so different to Lila Amrit - just same stories about DevP and Mah - language and description was much more simple, not many photos and only B&W and there was no mention of the current leader. I think the later version has just been more professionally edited and embellished, with special emphasis on current leader and uncle with nice glossy photos etc.
  • pavitra July 2011
    Posts: 270
    A crucial question came to my mind today. In one or another way it was repeated many times in this forum but now I reformulated it as a direct appeal to Cici.
    All the gurus and illuminated swamis (apart from their charisma) are building their authority on the fact that they know (or are able even to perform) something that we common people don't. I'm now convinced that this is all what we can call “the new emperor clothes” effect.
    Cici was part of the YIDL circus and for many of us we can even say that he was the best one. From my point of view the message that Cici spread during his teachings was in its greater part pure wisdom based on his observation skills and knowledge of the human nature and psychology that everyone can develop practising the different yoga techniques. I think that this knowledge together with the practising is very good and can also be a precious self-healing therapy.
    The crucial point for us that are now rejecting the fairytale manipulative and abusive part of it is to find the border between the good yoga and the abusive imperialistic one. For me personally is a key question now because I'm so disgusted about all the sexual abuses, politics and all kind of manipulations that I would like to reject everything. This is a direct appeal to Cici: as for so many years you have been the greatest helper in building the empire, can you now help us to find out this famous border between the genuine true knowledge and the manipulation (and lies)?
    I would be really grateful if someone from Novi Sad could give him this message.
  • someonefromhungary July 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @pavitra: yes... the whole thing is quite similar to the tale about the emperor's new clothes... everyone is talking about it, so it must be there... and yes, Chichi was the one who really made me believe that swAmi may really wear that invisible internal clothing of some absolute sincerity/freedom/purity or you name it. it doesn't mean that I blame Chichi because it was still my decision, and even that decision did not mean that I wanted to or could follow swAmi (or him or anyone) blindly. so Chichi doesn't owe me anything and I am not necessarily expecting him to do anything...

    [although I have to admit that I really miss him a lot... together with all those cases when I didn't agree with his manners (e.g. too hardly mocking people for their weaknesses) or with the actual propositions he was making... beyond all the things I liked him for, I liked him exactly because one could feel free to like him without always having to agree with him. or at least I felt much freer than in the case of swAmi... with swAmi I sometimes felt paradoxically, for not being able to love him the way it was sometimes suggested by him or by others... with that absolute love, absolute devotion, absolute acceptance, absolute whatever... the paradox is that anyone asking/expecting/demanding another person to love him/her is asking/expecting/demanding something, which is actually impossible... because sincere love, trust and wish for the other, his/her company, words etc. is spontaneous... it is beyond our intentions and control... even if we are convinced that that would be the best for us to love swAmi or someone else, it just doesn't work that way... and anyone asking/expecting/demanding us to love him/her with absolute blind love and trust is making use of our deepest fears from uncertainty and insecurity, and is keeping us in the position of a child instead of helping us to grow up and learn to accept that life is inherently uncertain and insecure and there is no way to change this basic fact...
    what we (or the na 'ham) can control is what we do when we have certain feelings, love or lack of love - or all kinds of shades inbetween - towards someone. and time and certain things may also change our emotions... but again, it never works in such a way that I can decide to love someone, to enjoy someone's company, words etc...]

    but as someone pointed out in another post somewhere, certain things seem to have changed since march... so yes, I am also one of those who would be very happy to hear what Chichi would have to say now... in general, and about specific issues... so please, if you read this, Chichi, and if you can, tell something and/or answer some questions people may have.
  • falseswamijifalseswamiji July 2011
    Posts: 255
    I didn't ask cici but let's make ti simple - teacher has to live his teachings - his life has to be a living proof of his teachings ( how can someone so fat , with hart attacks and diabetes teach others yoga in d.l.? for good health and long life ;)
    and of course - he has to emphasize- the knowledge -and the practice, not himself , not to build any kind of personality cult, to focus attention to his ego.

    Once i heard swamxxx saying- practice with your mantra regularly.. and one day you'll be LIKE ME.... pretty egoistic statement isn't it ( it was in umag or porec between 1998-2000)

    On the other occasion he was praising his clothes saying that naked man looks ugly like a monkey and that clothes actually make him a man.( this was in umag 2005)- pretty strange statement for a spiritual teacher . And specially knowing that he is a ''tantric' expert too and considers body as divine and 'ananda' source.

    Once asked about Maharishi XXXXX Yogi he had very very sweet and praising words for him though I knew that Maharishi was definitely not a genuine guru, which i knew from a personal experience with Maharishi ( also check "David wants to fly" documentary )
  • batawebatawe July 2011
    Posts: 409
    Paraphrasing Lacan's words from seminar XX "Encore", first chapter "On Pleasure"...

    ...he mentions the parrot which was in love with Picasso and it could be seen by the actions of the parrot that chewed on the collar of his shirt...and the parrot was totally in love with that which was on the man, precisely and essentially his dressing, his clothes...

    that which constitutes the "One" (One as something which is/becomes/tries to become whole; One as a signifier) is connected to the question of identification. The parrot identified with the dressed Picasso.

    The same is with everything we call "love". Clothes themselves/garment , they love the monk, and they become one by this connection.



    When dress becomes the 'truth'!
    Many years back when I was talking with certain renunciates in a monk dress, I was somehow fascinated and thought how brave they are that they decided to live such a life, totally spiritual, no sex, looking divinely glowing and self-possessed with/by the Truth, while their words echoed as the bright stars on the night sky...and their words were superbly more profound and grounded upon the foundations of the "dress-image"; you are immediately in a 'lower' position according to a certain status that subjects who are supposed to know bear upon themselves in relation to other mortal subjects; the divine halo/aura was achieved with 'multimedia effects' of audio-visual elements, the significant parts that constitute the 'truth' and its message, namely: voice and dress.

    Subject's voice is much more profound and bears the right meaning, if you wear the right dress which embodies your symbolic position. Dress becomes a sort of authority. Like policeman in a dress par example. Policeman is policeman by his dress (ok, maybe mustaches too;) and so the monk is monk by his/her dress also.

    After some time when I talked with the same person who was not anymore a monk and he wore a regular dress, his words also became regular and my perception of him was strangely 'normal';), and I saw this difference in my own perception and I saw that the difference was only in the role that was played at that time and his dress.

    Only later after many such stories or bearings of the 'truth' through years I realized the Truth has nothing to do with the dress at all, and I brushed aside the dress and this image and tried to see beyond the dress code. Even myself, when I was in a period of spiritual re-birth and cleansing, I quit wearing black, cause now I have become a white-man, positive, spiritual, on the side of the suras;)))...but I like extremes, I always liked black and its 'opposite' white and all the other colours, regardless of some inner meaning of what the colour represents...today I wear black, white, yellow, green, whatever...just back to where I was at the first place: a man wearing his clothes and minding his own business and leaving the dressing-of-the-truth to the parrots;)))
  • someonefromhungary July 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @batawe: :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

    during a satsang last year, Chichi said something like the only problem he has with this orange robe is that it makes him look as if he was different... as quite often, he said something that I had said to myself and/or to others at a certain point in my life, or which seemed almost as if I could have said... for a period, I was also considering to become a monk, although not immediately... and I realised that a monk's robe would again just create this dual barrier... that is, for many I would become too distant either because they would see me "more" than just someone from hungary or they would see me "less" than that... that is, either some kind of divine/absolute or some kind of nuts/weirdo/fanatic :D :( :D :( :D :(
    we have enough (although healthy) differences and thus (less healthy) barriers between us by default, by nature... why to aggravate this?
  • pavitra July 2011
    Posts: 270
    hi guys. I read my post again and it doesn't sound really as I wanted to. I miss Cici too and I also think that he doesn't owe anything to anyone. He was (and is) the best yoga teacher (and person) I ever met. I don't want to challenge him but really would like to hear from him. I think that now his perspective changed as ours and I would like to hear his actual re-interpretation of his direct meditation and other experiences. What does self realization means to him right now?
  • truthseeker July 2011
    Posts: 541
    *
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