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sex abuse scandal, Part II
  • karavan May 2011
    Posts: 135
    Excuse me, but who is Muktananda?
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    Reply to @karavan:
    He is the one who brought Gurugita to West. The most popular version was sung by Donovan. Then he (Donovan) found out about all those things and left his guru.

    Here is my own (Roman's) version:

    Have you sung your Gurugita today yet?
    Sing it and then give me everything.
    Gurugita will guide you on that journey,
    give me your hand,
    I will guide you too.

    Oh(mmmmm), Oh(mmmmmm)
    Drink the divine nectar of guru's wisdom.
  • John_Sceptic May 2011
    Posts: 30
    http://www.siddhayoga.org/baba-muktananda

    Here's an interesting 4min video: http://www.leavingsiddhayoga.net/frames2.htm (Shadow of the Guru) The lady is making a documentary about her 26 years of service.

    falseswamiji: Thanks. Doesn't sound like a very thorough investigation by the Australians, I would have expected them to contact you and the victims.
    truthseeker: Great link - about abuse in cults, a psychoanalytic perspective
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @John_Sceptic: I couldn't find information about the film when I followed the link. This is the website about her film:

    http://www.shadowoftheguru.com/
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    A BBC-documentary about Sai Baba, called "The secret swami"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=DE&hl=de&v=_BVEJDPrGpM
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    After watching the Sai Baba-documentary my conclusions are:

    -that it was Sai Baba's plan from the beginning to become a 'guru', in order to attain power, wealth and sex. That probably goes for the vast majority of gurus, including swAmi.

    -it's mass-psychosis that has helped co-create Sai Baba, much like the Germans helped to co-create Adolf Hitler as a semi-God. His followers deified Baba to such a degree that he became above moral conduct, they argued that for everything he did there had to be some 'higher' reason that normal human beings don't understand. It makes me wonder what's that weak spot in human beings, or in modern humans, that makes them get caught up in such psychosis. Maybe it's the availability of mass media?

    - it's very hard to bring a guru down, many of his devotees (maybe most of them) will never believe any allegations against him, they will only see it as a test to their devotion. And if even they do believe the accusations, they will look for all kinds of crazy explanations to have them fit into their world view. They could only bring Hitler down by invading Germany, if they hadn't done that the Germans might still be venerating him today. The Chinese still venerate Mao Zedong, another brilliant mass manipulator.
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    "It makes me wonder what's that weak spot in human beings, or in modern humans, that makes them get caught up in such psychosis. Maybe it's the availability of mass media?"

    I found something of an answer about the Indian situation in an article from the weekly magazine Tehelka with the title:
    "A MIRROR OF THE MIDDLE CLASS. NEW AGE GURUS HAVE ONLY ADAPTED RELIGION TO THE NEEDS OF OUR ALIENATED AND DISTURBED URBAN LIVES"

    : http://www.tehelka.com/story_main31.asp?filename=Ne300607A_mirror_of.asp
  • John_Sceptic May 2011
    Posts: 30
    Truthseeker: Sorry, the link was wrong. Yes, the video is on the "Shadow of the Guru" site, on the first page to the right you see a window with "Trailer" at the top, and the window it says "Shadow of the Guru", and you see a play button. It's 4.58minutes long.

    Don't know if that is just an introduction, with more to come.
  • pandora May 2011
    Posts: 10
    you guys are all quite weird. sorry but when you read this forum now it seems like nothing more than a chance to discredit Guru's. There seem to be so many attacks, and today i was thinking about it and these thoughts came to me so i'll share them;

    i think many people see Guru's and SWami's as perfect and they treat them like they are high above and ideal and while we respect that secretly we are envious and subconsciously aware that we can never reach that level of perfection, only we ourselves know truly our own bad habits etc, so this high esteem we hold for Swami's makes us feel worse and worse within ourselves until one day we crack - that's it, i cant take it anymore. in actual fact we cant take the high ideal we have put before us that we cant live up to but because of our own inner guilt and inability to accept onelsef this all get's projected. Every great Guru has gone through many trials and every Saint has similar stories, it's not that they are the problem but the expectations and everything that the public put on them is probably not realistic.

    That is why i say look at yourselves.

    if we are dissapointed we should probably ask ourselves what expectations we had that didn't get fulfilled, and rather than shift all our blame and pain we take accountability and ACCEPT that everyone can make mistakes or even can behave in a way we don't understand.

    there are still differing views on what to beleive and that is o.k, why force people to believe anything, that just shows that you need to justify yourselves! why? if your goal was to inform people of something you thought was important there are several other ways to do that credibly, this forum has turned into a rubbish dump and it's looking worse each day.

    Sorry to say, but that is my view after reading somethings today after a few days not.

  • pavitra May 2011
    Posts: 270
    to pandora: I don't have any ambition to be perfect. I'm OK with my human condition and values. I didn't have any excpectations towards swAmi. I loved him from all my heart. I would not call sexually abusing very young women and using people to become his slaves in the name of high and positive values while building a spirtual business empire MISTAKES. I'm very sorry for your judgement about people participating to this forum. Contrary to you I find them very intelligent, open and helpful, including you. Generally speaking I'm always fascinated by human minds and feelings even if they are coming from small children and not so smart people. I think that is very important and useful that our discussion about sex abuses, manipulations and people exploatation is going on. As these horrible things are going on in many places in the world our experiences and thaughts can help someone to avoid falling in. If you feel that you are intellectually well above our limited capacities I'm asking you kindly to continue to discuss with us as you may help with your insights. I agree with you that there are several ways to inform people and thrust me we will not neglate any of them.
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    Reply to @pandora:
    You are speaking about looking into ourselves. That we must be wrong if we are speaking against guru(s). You yourself have said that many of them were accused of all kinds of misconduct. Do you really believe that there is no base to any of those allegations? That there is a world and time wide conspiracy against guru(s)? Did you make any other effort than just reading something from one concrete-fixed position? I can assure you that I did. And many others on this forum did as many others did before during the other guru(s) allegations at different time and place. Everything works both ways. Even the Pandora box.
  • batawebatawe May 2011
    Posts: 409
    Reply to @pandora:

    "i think many people see Guru's and SWami's as perfect and they treat them like they are high above and ideal and while we respect that secretly we are envious and subconsciously aware that we can never reach that level of perfection..."

    ___________REPLY: yes THEY do see them as 'above', whoever wants to see them that way; but you automatically see them that way, as they have taken upon themselves the "symbolic mandate" of a 'king'/ruler/swami/master etc., its a Symbolic thing, it doesn't necessarily have to involve the actual 'content' of all the "positive attributes" contained within their persona, what gives a subject the "reality' of a 'king", is the position, socially structured position and the position itself maintains by its symbolic meaning the 'power' that it holds...there is always this simple gesture of imparting on someone his role of 'king-ness' ("He is our King!"/King does not exist), meaning that the position of a "King" is the position given by the very same name/symbolic mandate given to someone , "to act as a King"...it's the power of symbolic position within the social structure and it doesn't pertain to the person's 100% attributability of his actual perfectness, whatsoever.
    ...........secretly we are envious; whoever is envious is just a ambitious subject, who also wants to be a 'king' or king's minister or whatever...it has nothing to do with inability to reach his/her perfectness; work hard, do your thing and you'll become president, probably...if you are (subconsciouslly) aware that you will never reach that level of perfection, than you will not reach it, but if you do not have that envy and you do not preoccupy yourself with this irrelevant questions, about perfection, than there is no problem at all...it's just false projection that you glue on the Other and overlooking your own ability for perfection in your own work...this psychological questions or ruminations are useless...what is your relation to the king and what do you want from the king?, while waiting for the 'King' to give you something, meanwhile, your 'kids' are starving to death at your own 'home'.

    "...only we ourselves know truly our own bad habits etc, so this high esteem we hold for Swami's makes us feel worse and worse within ourselves until one day we crack - that's it, i cant take it anymore."

    _____________REPLY: yes, we are probably aware of our (bad) habits...if you don't have high esteem for Swamis, you have much time to work on your own habits...


    ..."in actual fact we cant take the high ideal we have put before us that we cant live up to but because of our own inner guilt and inability to accept onelsef this all get's projected."

    ____________REPLY: of course we can't take upon ourselves the high IDEAL, because the high Ideal demands all the time more and more and more, its never-ending demand, like superego/conscience, which demands more and more; the more you purify, the bigger the guilt, less you are becoming pure, the demand is infinite...


    "Every great Guru has gone through many trials and every Saint has similar stories, it's not that they are the problem but the expectations and everything that the public put on them is probably not realistic."

    -----------REPLY: well, public should get to their senses, little bit more and have less expectations; and they went through trials, as every martyr does for the Cause...maybe his Demands, upon others, are too big and public can't handle it...and it's a tradition that Saint goes through suffering, that's the sign of saintlyhood...;)

    "That is why i say look at yourselves."

    ___________REPLY: the best advice till now!


    "if we are dissapointed we should probably ask ourselves what expectations we had that didn't get fulfilled, and rather than shift all our blame and pain we take accountability and ACCEPT that everyone can make mistakes or even can behave in a way we don't understand."

    ---------REPLY: that's right, let's leave the expectations - regarding the Other - out and there will be no statements of dissapointment...yes, everyone can make mistakes; yes, he can behave in a way we don't understand, and should we understand? Question is absurd, as it means "we will never understand certain things"....and why should we...

    "there are still differing views on what to beleive and that is o.k, why force people to believe anything, that just shows that you need to justify yourselves! why?"

    _____REPLY: ask yourself the same question...the answer won't come from the Other...


    "if your goal was to inform people of something you thought was important there are several other ways to do that credibly, this forum has turned into a rubbish dump and it's looking worse each day."

    -----REPLY: it is like it is, ask the 'Creator' aka Roman, why is he doing it like this, he can answer you...if it is a rubbish dump, than either help and dump some more with us or throw the rubbish dump into the dump;))...and if it gets worse everyday, than maybe one day it will be so unbearably bad it will turn into its opposite and it will become the transformed and excellent piece of art or maybe a new form of dump-art!;)

    "Sorry to say, but that is my view after reading somethings today after a few days not."

    _---__REPLY: you are welcome to dump what you like and don't feel sorry, there's no one here to take the excuse;)
  • someonefromhungary May 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @batawe: :) :) :) :)
  • batawebatawe May 2011
    Posts: 409
    Reply to @someonefromhungary: ;))
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    This 'weirdo' is making another post about gurus, sorry Pandora. I found this article from the Indian weekly magazine Tehelka, with the title 'The business of the Gods' (June 30 , 2007):

    http://www.tehelka.com/story_main31.asp?filename=Ne300607Business_Of_the.asp

    “Godmen seem to be the biggest beneficiary of the economic boom,” says Pradip Ghosh of the Kolkata-based Science and Rationalists’ Association (SRA).

    Two examples of this: Amma, the famous South-Indian lady Saint, had an empire of about Rs 1200 crore (almost 200 million euro) about four years ago. SwAmi's friend Baba Ramdev had a yearly turnover of Rs 400 crore, which is about 63 million euro (1 crore is equal to 10 million, 1 lakh to 100.000) That was four or five years ago, and since then his empire has further expanded. He now owns at least 11.52 billion Rupees, which is about 180 million euro (http://www.jaisiyaram.com/blog/guru/7657-an-open-letter-to-swami-ramdev-from-swami-balendu-22-mar-11.html)

    Not bad for a Sanyasi, I can understand swAmi wants to be friends with him. I'm wondering what swAmi makes a year, it can't be as much as Baba Ramdev, but still he has been able to build his Jadan temple. How much will this temple have cost when you compare it to the hospital and school?
    When will we get a financial overview of this? Oh sorry, we can't ask that of a Saint of course, my apologies to 'His Holiness'.

    Most 'Godmen' spend only a very small part of their wealth to charity, certainly much less than Bill Gates, whose goal it is to donate half of his fortune (still too little I think, but okay). So who would God prefer, when you consider "helping hands are better than folded hands"?
  • reality May 2011
    Posts: 17
    Reply to @truthseeker: Saibaba's empire is Rs 4,000 crores officially. Truck loads of currency was transported from one asram to the other overnight when he died. Why there was delay in announcing his death, because, the parties wanted to know who would share....

    Poor God, wherever He is, will be laughing seeing his creation of glorified beggars.
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @reality: Rs 4,000 crores is about 630 million euro. The God business is doing well these days...
  • someonefromhungary May 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @pandora: dear pandora,

    you suggest we might have had too high expectations about swAmi and that's why we are disappointed. in previous comments, you said "gurus are divine beings" and that "it is not possible for us to truly understand the guru"...

    yes, I admit to having had the expectation that a real guru (who is equivalent to god for many) is free from lies and hypocrisy, and is therefore open to respectfully discuss if he/she gets criticised/accused.

    whether swAmi lies about his celibacy and is, therefore, hypocrite is still a question for me because I have no first-hand experience. but so far I also haven't seen any genuine effort from his part to openly and respectfully discuss the allegations with those who complain and others interested... rather the opposite.

    yes, maybe my expectations are to high and/or I am unable to understand the divine lila in his unwillingness...
    I'll take full responsibility for my (potential) mistake... most of the associated negative effects will only fall back on me, anyhow... yet, I again apologise for the pain I may be causing to you and others by saying this or that about someone loved and absolutely trusted by you...

    hmm... last summer someone told me that some people have bad thoughts about swAmi always having these young girls around as sevis... and this person asked me something like "how to convince them it's not true?"... I shrugged my shoulders and said there may be no way to change someone's opinion... I said let them go, let them think what they think... at that time I trusted swAmi wouldn't do something like that... and not because it was impossible by definition, but because I simply trusted him enough and never heard about any such accusations in relation to him before and have not seen him reacting to accusations... now I've heard many serious accusations and seen his way of handling it. and my trust in him has decreased seriously.
    your trust has not.
    I respect that.
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    Reply to @batawe:
    Batawe, you called me the "Creator". I think I'll file defamation law suit against you. It is a dirty word in my “atheist vocabulary” :):):)

    Just in general @everybody:
    There are many ways how to deal with this situation. By now everybody has to admit that this forum made a lot of difference. That’s a fact. You may not like it but what can you do? Same as did falseswamiji’s website, Durchanand activities and many other activities which may look not done properly/”credibly”. Haven’t they have been done, status quo of silence and conformism would continue. They actually work “incredibly” well. Although I am very good in planning and strategic thinking, this outcome really beat all my expectations. That I mean for both sides. I do appreciate any views. We can challenge each other, it’s healthy, it’s real, it means that we live what we stand for. I, personally, am listening to everybody what they have to say. I know that many other people here are. There is nothing evil or malicious about that. Who wants to challenge that? Empires? C’mon, we are in 21 century.
    Somebody before was making jokes about us thinking that we are riding the wave of free democratic movement and something like that. Dear friend, just open your eyes. We are not living in caves and cages. And if that is the way you like it, just go and close yourself in your cave and cage. Nobody really cares. We care about the truth even it may not pass your highest spiritual standards of the Truth. Again: Who cares? You obviously don’t.
    Love you all,

    Roman
  • John_Sceptic May 2011
    Posts: 30
    Australia: http://sites.google.com/site/falseguru/australia-yidl
    What's happening in Australia? For the Guru or against the Guru?
  • pavitra May 2011
    Posts: 270
    http://www.yogaindailylife.org.au/
    no sign of any guru in Australia
    swAmi is mentioned only in the charitable projects
    The name XXXXX is not a registered trademark. Generic terms (yoga) or descriptive terms (in daily life) are not eligible (can not be used) in trademarks. Only the YIDL logo is a registered trademark. It means that you can teach any XXXXX and have your own association with this name. From my point of view as no logo is there - they are on their own regarding the yoga classes but still supporting the charitable projects in Jadan.
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    I don’t know how in other countries, but I know that in the US the name XXXXX of the Empire is registered as trademark. You are right that you cannot register generic or descriptive terms, but you can register a specific combination of them like “Thanks God It’s Friday®”. As far as in Australia, all I know, people are split and traumatized. They are dealing with the situation and when the time is right, I am sure that we will hear about it (regardless what the answer is). The question “for the guru or against the guru” is, in my opinion, a little bit simplistic. Those who want to teach yoga after they leave the Empire can choose different name for their style. They may even find it freeing and “therapeutic” :)
  • karavan May 2011
    Posts: 135
    yoga
    yoga for all
    yoga for every day...
    who cares.

    I am practicing yoga every morning, I start with greeting to the sun.
    (Not greeting to some lost village Kathu in Rajastan, why one should?).

    Greeting brother Sun, greeting sister Earth, standing on my own feet, not bowing to anybody never ever more.
  • reality May 2011
    Posts: 17
    Just thought will share this link....

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/look-it-way/200906/how-start-cult

    now one can relate the stories...in fairy tale books..
  • VeritasVeritas May 2011
    Posts: 218
    I take the chance to answer some questions raised on
    the site http://fakedisciple.blogspot.com/
    dated 23. April 2011 as there is no possibility to do it there.

    Quote from http://fakedisciple.blogspot.com/
    It is interesting to see that all this people mentioned on this page and the others
    (known but not mentioned) do not care about anybody else but themselves.


    Answer:
    On the contrary, you could not possibly be more wrong with your assumption.
    If people like us would not care about others we would not do what we do.
    Actually it is the other way round, YOU are the ones who do not care about
    the abuse that has taken place, who does not care about the injustice that
    has been done to those who dare to speak up now.
    You are too deeply caught in your selfishness by keeping your self righteous
    ideal up above the truth, sacrificing truth for ideal. That is what you call Yoga?


    Quote from http://fakedisciple.blogspot.com/
    All this big words about justice, truth .....
    Does this really helps anybody but themselves?


    Answer:
    Not just big words, big actions are done with it as well.
    And it does help the victims in the first place, to have someone who supports
    them, someone who does not discredit and ridicule them on top of the suffering
    they had to experience.


    Quote from http://fakedisciple.blogspot.com/
    It seems more like revenge for the sake of revenge, hatred for the sake of hate.


    Answer:
    It is in fact a fight for truth for the sake of truth.
    One day you will realize that and be ashamed of yourself.
  • joyriver May 2011
    Posts: 101
    Reply to @Veritas: This is truth spoken! :) Thank you, Veritas.
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    Thank you, Veritas for parsing this. They used to have there very passionate, offensive and stupid (in the eye of beholder) letters attacking certain people. Then they’ve decided either that the content was really damn or that if they want to challenge other sites on personal information, they could get harassed the same way they are doing it to us now. (And you can bet I am ready.) Whatever the reason, they took it down and now we have this golden BS…iting. I say – pathetic. And you, dear Veritas, are right on money :)
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] May 2011
    Posts: 0
    Dear All,

    I have heard from some friends that Australia is falling apart, not because they don't believe in XXXXX but because they have certain 'issues' they are dealing with either personally amongst themselves or between each other. I have heard there is not much symbiosis between them and not much communication either. it seems many have gone in hiding rather than face the issues and it's still not clear.

    From what i have heard there have been many problems with them over the years and this has brought much to the surface, strange really, and you wonder if it was a master plan to resolve some long standing stale matters, who knows but everything does happen for a reason. One thing is for sure there's certainly been some stale things happening.

    On another note it seems the time is coming closer for some further developments, like everyone is making a personal decision to leave, which they should if they are against it or to stay, and probably when people are more sure within themselves then XXXXX will say something, like 'it's all lies' or whatever but at that time everyone who was looking to leave has and everyone who wants to stay stays, you know, it shouldn't be dependent on XXXXX anyway, it should be dependant on one self, on our own spiritual path and on our own faith, why expect someone else to make it all better? maybe that's the problem why so many people are in strife right now, they wanted HIM to make it better all along, when the only one who can truly do that is YOU. Beleive in yourself and go your own way based on your own decision, not on what you have read or heard or whatever, go and meditate and find the answers in your own consciousness. It will tell you. And when it does there's no need to be angry or hurt, because we got here only because of ourselves, no one forced us! so lets take accountability for at least that much.

    and great to those who stay, your faith has been tested and you stayed true. despite what anyone tells you.

    Master is Master, those who understand will know and stay, those who don't, it's time to go.

    i'll leave you with these thoughts i have found inspiring and helpful by Krishnamurti;
    You must be true in speech too - accurate and without exaggeration. never attribute motives to another; only His Master knows his thoughts, and he may be acting from reasons which have never entered your mind. If you hear a story against anyone do not repeat it; it may not be true, and even if it is, it is kinder to say nothing. Think well before speaking, lest you should fall into inaccuracy.
  • batawebatawe May 2011
    Posts: 409
    Reply to @sophie: everyone must resolve things on his/her own...you said it well: "...because we got here only because of ourselves..."
  • VeritasVeritas May 2011
    Posts: 218
    Reply to @sophie:

    Quote sophie
    And when it does there's no need to be angry or hurt, because we got here only because of ourselves, no one forced us! so lets take accountability for at least that much.

    Objection, your honour!
    There are cases of people who were drawn into the organization at a age of 12, 13, 14...
    (or sometimes even younger). They had no real choice. Some of them ended up in being abused
    physically, once they reached the legal age.
    So, what choice did they have?

    Quote sophie
    and great to those who stay, your faith has been tested and you stayed true. despite what anyone tells you.


    Oh sure, great, so the more follwers leave, the better for the true bhaktas that have prooven
    worthy. They do not have to share their Guru with so many others. Wow I am impressed by this kind of logic.

    Quote sophie
    Master is Master, those who understand will know and stay, those who don't, it's time to go.


    Liar is liar and imposter is imposter.
    Realizing requires consequences.
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