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sex abuse scandal, Part II
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] May 2011
    Posts: 0
    Reply to @Ivan:
    I could now write many arguments and try to prove other side stories, but I won’t. I just want to tell you that stories about Chichi are not so ridicolous as you said to outside people.
    One thing is sure, I was just using your language in our conversation but...
    - he is not just ordinary guy and he was not actor in those horror stories.
    You will realise that one day.
  • someonefromhungary May 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @oviss:

    dear oviss,

    I think realisation/enligthenment can only happen in the present. when we stop postponing it, stop projecting it into the future, when we stop waiting for others to give us freedom to see and strength to accept what we see (inside and outside, which is ultimately the same).

    even if he's not ordinary and even if he was not actor in those horror stories, I would not want to belong to a community where conflicts are handled the way this is handled.

    :(
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @oviss: I didn't mean to annoy you, sorry about that. But I must say, I don't think all gurus start off with bad intentions, but I think that the nature of the whole guru concept (followers see you as a God in the flesh, or at least having a special connection to a supernatural being) inevitably leads to unhealthy situations. Power corrupts and absolute power corrups absolute. That's human weakness and I don't think anyone can be enlightened enough to raise above that. So I think we have to throw the whole concept overboard. This is my personal opinion, you may disagree.

    But as swAmi suddenly started to praise Sai Baba so high, I thought your opinion might have been that all swamis and gurus are okay. I'm glad you have an open mind and are not so stupid to believe that. Just study a little bit about Sai Baba, how many boys and young men have been sexually abused by him. Is this all a conspiracy by jealous asuras?

    I think this appraisal of Sai Baba by swAmi was an effort to put all gurus, including himself, in the victim position: "poor us, we are such pure beings, but we have to suffer all kinds of unjust allegations by unspiritual people". I see this kind of solidarity between gurus as being 'partners in crime'. But swAmi thinks: if my sheep start to realise gurus can behave really bad, they may start to think I could be capable of that too. So all gurus must stick together and keep making their followers believe they are all holy.
  • karavan May 2011
    Posts: 135
    Reply to @oviss:
    dont worry, it is clear for every outsider what is it about this guru and sexual abuse. Bowing, kneeing against guru, promising the guru mind, soul, heart and body, drinking feetwash - what can one from 21st century think about.

    YIDL is a cult and so it goes in a cult system.
  • batawebatawe May 2011
    Posts: 409
    ...it appears as if solidarity exists as much as anywhere else...and famous swamis of today, meeting each other and photographing together and promoting their brand, is becoming much popular, and than news of who met who circles around and we are all part of great brotherhood...and, is the guru able to 'save' thousands of disciples?, handing the responsibility and waiting for a special blessing...form one perspective it looks as if all those things just divert you from your-self and fundamental concepts or aims of spirituality, if we want to talk about them...too much stress is layed upon so called enlightenment that is being sold everywhere and making a good businessmen show...


    - P.D. Ouspensky: "In Search of the Miraculous", Chapter Three.:

    Evolution is the result of conscious struggle. Nature does not need this evolution; it does not want it and struggles against it. Evolution can be necessary only to man himself when he realizes his position, realizes the possibility of changing this position, realizes that he has powers that he does not use, riches that he does not see. And, in the sense of gaining possession of these powers and riches, evolution is possible. But if all men, or most of them, realized this and desired to obtain what belongs to them by right of birth, evolution would again become impossible. What is possible for individual man is impossible for the masses."The advantage of the separate individual is that he is very small and that, in the economy of nature, it makes no difference whether there is one mechanical man more or less. We can easily understand this correlation of magnitudes if we imagine the correlation between a microscopic cell and our own body. The presence or absence of one cell will change nothing in the life of the body. We cannot be conscious of it, and it can have no influence on the life and functions of the organism. In exactly the same way a separate individual is too small to influence the life of the cosmic organism to which he stands in the same relation (with regard to size) as a cell stands to our own organism. And this is precisely what makes his 'evolution' possible; on this are based his 'possibilities.'"In speaking of evolution it is necessary to understand from the outset that no mechanical evolution is possible. The evolution of man is the evolution of his consciousness. And 'consciousness' cannot evolve unconsciously. The evolution of man is the evolution of his will, and 'will' cannot evolve involuntarily. The evolution, of man is the evolution of his power of doing, and 'doing' cannot be the result of things which 'happen.'
  • karavan May 2011
    Posts: 135
    Reply to @oviss:
    dont worry, it is clear for every outsider what is it about this guru and sexual abuse. Bowing, kneeing against guru, promising the guru mind, soul, heart and body, drinking feetwash - what can one from 21st century think about.

    YIDL is a cult and so it goes in a cult system.
  • Ivan May 2011
    Posts: 161
    It is probably time to recollect on the myth of swAmi being a super-charismatic person. I think his charisma comes from cultural misunderstanding and from devotees stories. I claim that any orange robed Indian personality in late seventies and early eighties could have same success in countries of middle Europe, especially in communist ones where he managed to gather some following. But look at his following in Vienna?! Most Vienese devotees are actually Czech, Slo, Cro, Hung. He is there a totally marginal figure, and he is living there! Still in eighties he had regular yoga classes with ten or twenty not too much overwhelmed yoga practitioners in Vienna... A friend told me a story of attending such a class where swAmi had some Austrian granny's yoga practitioners exchanging recepies with him and chatting as with a normal yoga teacher who he really is. The point is that the only non communist success was Australia, and that again is a product of Hariharanand's (demonic) skill and of course other well organized people there who have fortunaley all left. I remember in the days that the explanation of such a mediocre success of swAmi in Vienna was that he is doing it on purpose in order to have a living without stress in Vienna. But I think that it was because there you have more opportunity to know him personally. As far away from him you are personally his charisma gets bigger. And that's only because of his devotees making that charisma...
    YIDL is a completely marginal phenomena affecting only the lives of us few who were unlucky to stumble somehow upon this small but poisonous cult.
    P.S. Truthseeker's post from 26 May: great observations of this guru solidarity!
    P.S.2 Why the nick Ovis, you probably know what it means in Latin? Irony or subconciousness is making a statement? No offence, really.
  • mangotree May 2011
    Posts: 118
    Reply to @Ivan:
    or maybe ovis is an aries and is into astrology...
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] May 2011
    Posts: 0
    Reply to @Ivan:
    no offence, I know what ovis is, it was on purpose, you are calling us sheeps...so I am one of the "sheeps" in your language bhakta=brainless sheep
  • PallasAthene May 2011
    Posts: 246
    Reply to @oviss:
    You are right, a human can not be a sheep, only can act like a sheep. We should never forget that behind every nick is a human being.

    Now that is very interesting. Ovis is a bighorn and his genus is the sheep. In Latin ovis is called aries, which is ruled by the planet mars and considered as a fire sign. Now I understand the saying a wolf in sheep's clothing.

    Don’t worry, you are welcome
  • someonefromhungary May 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @PallasAthene and to @oviss:
    as a matter of fact, sheep are not brainless, at all :)
    and this deep-rooted impulse in us to "go with herd" can be extremely useful sometimes... for example, when you are instructed to lift your leg in the 100th round of vyaghrasana :D :D :D
    and seriously, dear oviss, I also thank you for participating in this forum...
    and shrug your shoulders to labels ;)
  • speakup May 2011
    Posts: 57
    Agree Karavan, this is what I have been saying - it is a cult.

    Have been reading a great book by Dr Margaret Singer "Cults in our midst" - would highly recommend it to all of you. Really helps to put this is perspective and to understand cult behaviour particularly when a leader is criticised - people still under mind control will attack those who leave - they will do anything to protect the reputation and the power of the leader.

    It is very easy to get involved in organisations that practice 'thought reform', the front that many organisations present is very appealing - a smiling benevolent guru, wonderful relaxing yoga classes etc - gradually as you get more involved do more clasess/programs/teacher training you are persuaded to to change the way that you think. Yoga is wonderful, but what is not wonderful is the worship of one man and the power that one man exerts over so many people. Not to mention the sexual and psychological manipulation and abuse that has gone on.

    Just a comment on Australia - I am Australian and the people who have resigned have held this organisation together for many years, they are good, hard working and honest people - to say otherwise is very wrong. There is some conflict now, but that conflict is because there are still people who refuse to face the truth and just want to attack those who are leaving. I suspect that many of these attacks are orchestrated by the empire - trying to salvage whatever it can from the ruins!
  • John_Sceptic May 2011
    Posts: 30
    There are a lot of really good links here, good tips, etc. But it takes a long time to get to them. The Abuse Site has Victim stories and Letters of Resignation, very good, no doubt. But what is needed is a Links page, so that people who are in need of help and counselling can get to some kind of help ASAP. How about it, Roman? A page with links to Cult/Mind Control/Cult Exit Information?
  • karavan May 2011
    Posts: 135
    I posted this comment on the wrong box, I post it again here and ask admin. to delete it from the other one (when the teacher turns to a cheater), thanks!
    ..........................
    When first testimony appeared here in Slovenia, SwAmi himself asked people that were very close to testimony No 1 ( in fact her "best" female friend for years and even a marriage witness) to write e-mail that was spread to all members in Slovenia with the arguments for testimonie's mental illnes and incredibility, and she did it. At the end of a long letter with description of very personal stuff a friend tells to a friend she even admits that she was instructed by SwAmi himself in person to write this letter. This is just one of the proofs under what a preassure the victims are and have been in the past.

    Translation
    ...
    "To end this letter - I still dont know if this is only a SwAmi's game or not, but in these days I got to know about yoga and myself so much as I hadn't got it in 20 years. The only thing that I know for sure is that what SwAmi does, does it for our good, to awake us to see where we are. And even this letter SwAmi is ordering to save N., (this is my opinion), that she would be diverted from the court charge, becouse if she would go to the court, she will brake down, that's why i am writing this letter under the SwAmis instructions. And we should know, that teacher does all for their students and their spiritual development- he would even die on the cross for them...pardon them, father, they dont know what they are doing, (Jezus was accused and some of his followers were crossed becouse they were defending him), I wouldnt be able to stand this. Before the rooster crowed 3 times I betreyed him (SwAmi) hundred times, such a bad bakta I am - I admit, but I hope that I have improved the damage with this letter. And again, only the best about our N. and nothing negative, becouse she is our sister, only with love, becouse love is the biggest weapon that takes away all the darknes; Sri dip Narayan Bhagwan ki jaygreeting of J. "

    ...
    "Za konec pa še to: jaz ne vem, če je to swamidžijeva igra ali ne ampak v teh dneh sem spoznala o jogi in sebi toliko kot ne v 20 letih prej. Edino to vem, da Swamidži karkoli dela, dela za naše dobro, da se mi predramimo in vidimo kje smo. Tudi to pismo swamidži naroča zato (to je moje mišljenje) da reši Niko, da bi jo odvrnil od tožbe, ker če bo šla na sodišče, se bo zlomila. zato tudi betreyed him 100 timetole po swamidžijevih navodilih. In vedimo, da učitelj vse naredi za svoje učence in njihov duhovni razvoj-celo na križ gre umret za njih-oprosti jim oče, saj ne vedo kaj delajo,(Jezusa so isto obtožili in nekatere učence so križali ker so ga zagovarjali), no tega jaz ne bi zdržala. in preden je petelin trikrat odpel sem ga stokrat izdala. Taka nikakva bakta sem-priznam, ampak upam, da se s tem pismom nekako popravim škodo. In še enkrat vsi o N najlepše in nič negativno, ker je naša guru sestra in samo z ljubeznijo, ker ta je največje orožje in prežene vso temo, Sri dip Narayan Bhagwan ki jay; pozdrav od J
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @karavan: swAmi as the Jesus of this time, interesting. What did I write about gurus choosing the victim role? With some help from his followers. It's sad that he has probably destroyed a longlasting friendship this way. But of course swAmi does it all out of love. Yes, sure... for the love of power, money, fame and sex.
  • falseswamijifalseswamiji May 2011
    Posts: 255
    john: https://sites.google.com/site/paramliar/links-1
    send me useful links to my gmail all of you, and i'll put it on the site.


    karavan , thank you for revealing this letter. gosh what a hypocrite and a demon he is
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    Reply to @falseswamiji & @John_Sceptic:
    Thank you, falseswamiji, for taking this task on yourself.

    Roman
  • Tony May 2011
    Posts: 172
    I think that we are going to see the organization becoming even more radical and extreme. Little by little, directly and indirectly, this scandal will drive away moderate and reasonable people. The only people who stay will be mostly the religious extremists, utterly devoted, non-thinking robots. There will also be a small group of relatively intelligent and able people who, despite being aware of what's going on, are unable to leave because they have become too deeply involved financially and politically, their lives are entangled within the organization. SwAmi will probably withdraw and spend more and more time in India; it will be interesting to see how he'll manage to continue to fund the organization. There will be less and less yoga, less and less meditation, replaced by more and more prayer, bhakti and karma yoga slavery. Diminishing contact with the real world, and lack of rational feedback will lead to even more pronounced absurdities, the entire organization will become even more obviously crazy, so the new people whom it will still manage to attract will be ... ahem ... different.
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] May 2011
    Posts: 0
    Reply to @Tony:
    yes, as you say new perople will be religious extremists, utterly devoted, non-thinking robots, and probably brainless sheep...well, it will be nice, I like chellenges..I will stay
  • PallasAthene May 2011
    Posts: 246
    Reply to @oviss:
    Please stay there. You are strong. The subconsious mind is a crazy ocean.
  • Tony May 2011
    Posts: 172
    Reply to @oviss: Sheep are actually very intelligent animals. There is some new research on that done in the UK. It's just that like other social animals, they have a herd mentality, because sticking together increases their survival odds. So it's not that they really obey the shepherd dog, even though it looks that way; they just stay together in a group, protecting the little lambs from the predator by keeping them inside.

    A much better animal to feature in an analogy of blind obedience is, in fact, the dog, also highly intelligent. Isn't that ironic?

    Well, my favourite species is human. Not perfect, but overall extremely cool. No other animal walks the planet acting as if it belongs to it. Oh, and they can also build spacecraft to land on Titan and snap a few pictures.
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    J., (ex-)friend of N., if you read this: if swAmi is like Jesus, why didn't he let himself be crucified just like Jesus? Jesus didn't want his followers to protect him when he was arrested. When one of them ignored his order and hit the slave of the high priest at the ear, Jesus healed the wound. SwAmi isn't so non-violent, on the contrary, he encourages the attacks on his opponents or at least he doesn't stop them, instead he inflicts more wounds by instructing you to betray your best friend.

    Jesus knew his arrest and crucifiction had to happen to fulfil the prophecies in the old testament. It's a pity that there aren't similar prophecies in Lila Amrit about swAmi and I'm afraid it's too late now to add them. And one more thing, Jesus was not crucified with his followers, but with two thieves. So you don't need to worry about yourself. It would be better to worry about the pain you have caused to N. You were very cruelly manipulated by swAmi, that's true, but I hope you will be able to see one day that writing that letter was not the best thing you could do for N. and you will make your apologies to her.

    So J., next time you compare swAmi to Jesus, please do it right. Or maybe you shouldn't do it at all, I think it's not very appropriate.

    If anyone likes more theology lessons, just let me know :):):)
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] May 2011
    Posts: 0
    Reply to @truthseeker:
    wouldn't it be nice for you if he allow you to crucify him...are you romans? so less work for you to do
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @oviss: I'm not a Roman, only mr. Peterka is :) But do you believe swAmi's behaviour, in how he treated N., is the behaviour of a holy Saint? If you want to keep following him, do as you please, only keep in mind that you don't have to, you have a choice.
  • Roman May 2011
    Posts: 347
    Gosh, now the're gonna blame my mom (she gave me my name) for Jesus' death? It's getting freaking ridiculous :)
  • pavitra May 2011
    Posts: 270
    J. letter is quite illuminating about her state of mind and the comparison with Jesus on the cross and the betrayal is just fabulous. She is telling only the naked, horrible truth. She only mixed-up a little bit the roles. She is the one who betrayed her best friend, put a crone of spines around her head, flayed her to the bone and nailed her to the cross. A good bakhta following the orders of her master.
  • speakup May 2011
    Posts: 57
    Spot on Pavitra!

    I was wondering when the empire would use the Jesus analogy, comparing swAmi to Jesus. Before his death on the cross Jesus said: 'forgive them father' - full of love and compassion to those who were crucifying him.

    Do we see Christ like compassion and forgiveness from swAmi - no of course not, we only see a desire to further perscecute, spread hate, manipulate and deceive, sending his 'thought police' out to do his dirty work! Pure evil!
  • admin May 2011
    Posts: 61
    People like Ovis(s) and co, please create your user account with real email. It does not have to indicate your identity at all, it just has to be deliverable. When we receive the welcome email as undeliverable we have to delete your user account. It's a pitty. We don't gather any of your information. Why is it so difficult to follow? No need to be affraid of anyhing. We welcome everybody to this forum.
  • truthseeker May 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @admin: Ovis reminded me of Petr. Maybe he was Petr.
  • admin May 2011
    Posts: 61
    Reply to @truthseeker:
    I don't know. But it's not really important. I hope that the person will come back and continue with the discussion. Just create user account as anybody else, that's all.
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Devotees' testimonies:

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Devotee #3

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Devotee #4 - Contact: valika.balazova@centrum.cz

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Devotee #5 - Contact: synapseproblem@yahoo.de

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Devotee #6

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