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sex abuse scandal, Part II
  • Georg+Naggies+%28Ex-Ushmeypuri%29Georg Naggies (Ex-Ushmeypuri) September 2011
    Posts: 84
    Reply to @georg108: You'd be surprised how quickly the sWami's attentions vanish when you don't have a nice management position anymore. Basically, he was sizing you up for money. I saw it happening to me, too. How the attentions grew as soon as I had a well-paying job.
  • someonefromhungary September 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @georg108: dear georg108, you can have your level of comfort, you can even go into luxuries. it's absolutely your cup of tea. you're a private person.
    the problem is that swAmi is not a private person, and he suggests that he is a renunciate, and he is preaching renuncation. but he doesn't really seem to renounce that much. he seems to live on quite high standards and now it seems he has not renounced women either.
    if swAmi called himself an advanced yoga instructor and the top manager of a yoga organisation, and stopped stating/preachnig things he cannot live up to, then it would be all right. so the root problem is lying.
  • elisabeth September 2011
    Posts: 112
    Connex, thanks for the hug. It's a shame not more people who experienced SM's abilities post here. As for the rest: I, unlike you, don't know the "abuse victims". And I don't like misuse of power to get sex, money or other favors. With SM, there was one minor incident, where I thought he overstepped a sexual boundary. Back in Perth in 2005. Enough to change my flight and go back to Sydney immediately, but not enough to think he is a deviant.
    It's still a big puzzle.
    Even though I am extremely p...ed off with SM, what amazes me with the sex allegations and the whole circus since March 20011, is that none of these people ever had a proper taste of SM's abilities. Fair enough, I was told by a long-term disciple that not many people get to have a glimpse, but still: People who have been around him 15, 20 years? And no experiences like I've had? Wow.
    But Connex: Here's food for thought: I've analyzed all my experiences: He knows my past. He knows my present. But he NEVER EVER knew my future. He pretended he could read the future. But he failed. That's where I kind of "caught him out", "found out", the marble dropped and I woke up.
  • Sunyakash September 2011
    Posts: 87
    Well partial realities as @georg108 describes touches other possible women that had some sexual experiences with guru. However those testimonies might be completly opposite and glorifying him like to some extent Uldra Johnson and her description of exctasy.

    The problem I see is that even guru has rights for sex (or private) life and he can't be discriminated in this manner by picking up only women that are not his disciples (absurdic) or outside YIDL (make no sense). Having harem of girls is in deep tradition of eastern.

    So ok, we have few complaining women, one happy woman (Johnson) . It didn't work with few women but most likely (and also as reported in testimonies) worked with other women.

    As I couldn't find anything ilegal from one sample case of @chava the most probale explanation is that we hear only unsatisfied women here, while the rest of his harem are most likely happy and enjoying him.

    there was no force, @chava said NO and it ended. @angela didn't say No for some time and was enjoying him (I don't know) but if she was not able to say NO I assume she was OK with that until as reported she got boyfriend.

    This is unfair, because if man has some sexual pleasure with woman and she allows him to approach her and afterwards she claims she was manipulated, then this is tricking and unfair behavior. Spcially after so long period.

    quoted from @angela #5
    "These activities stopped after I told him I was in a new relationship with a fellow disciple in the ashram."

    ..yes usually this is the way affairs ends and once you said no, you were not repeating this and you were 'not any more abused' right ? simply because you clearly said NO.

    I can't see ABUSE nor SCANDAL and NOT AT ALL anything that could be treated as criminal. I can see 'classic' private life of a guru (like Osho, Maharishi and Sai Baba and many others).
  • someonefromhungary September 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @Sunyakash: it is swAmi who says he has no private life. and it is swAmi and his followers who say he is a celibate. and it is swAmi and his followers who suggest that he is above us.

    so I can see LIES.

    and ABUSE of the ones "below" by the one "above".

    those who don't feel abused, it's their private issue. but they also LIE when they don't tell their gurubrothers and sisters that swAmi LIES about his celibacy.

    whether and where these things are considered criminal is one issue.

    whether they are harmless, ethical or divine is another.

    I think they are harmful to many, they are unethical and not divine at all.
    irrespective of all other harmless, ethical and divine hard work of swAmi and his followers.

    so my answer to @georg108 is this: yes, I think people indeed have such extremes coexisting in themselves. people may seem really good and compassionate and divine and wise etc. with certain people, or in certain cricumstances etc. yet they may act completely the opposite with others, or in other circumstances etc...
    and again we should remember that siddhis or siddhi-appearing abilities are no guarantees for anything good or divine.
  • Sunyakash September 2011
    Posts: 87
    Reply to @someonefromhungary:
    Well try to look on him as a disciple of his guru who has been sent to 'dirty' and 'sexy' western europe, there was no option for him to give up )like many other swamis) he has to continue...may be otherwise his guru would kill him.. just speculating... and many ex-swamis can confirm how hard it is to start-up something in completly foregin country...
    May be he need a help and may be he is a victim as well...

    there is a story about shankaracarya - who was thinking how people might be so excited about world pleasures - at the same time one king died, so Shankaracary decided to make experiment and get some experiences....he went into the dead body of that king, awaked it and started to live like a king (who was back to life) and started to enjoy all pleasures the king had including many nice women and girls. He was so absorbed, that even after half a year he didn't come back to his disciples. Then his diciples decided to go to the king and started to sing to him his own songs ..shankaracarya in king's body recalled himself and his sanyas life and left king's body and all the pleasures there... and he was very thankful to his disciples...

    I like on this story that his disciples were not rejecting him, but they tried to help him . Or you may say this in other words - he has done so many good karmas that it protected him to fall down.

    I will end with my first comment - I don't know why there are black spots on Sun, however these black spots are in my eyes nothing in comparison to radiation and enormous benefit the Sun brings to all of us... well at least I can feel that warm... regardless of black spots or even the eclipses or clouds..it is there, I can rely on it, it is stable, non changing, always there, predictable and loving..
  • someonefromhungary September 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @Sunyakash:

    I heard swAmi saying he was not actually sent to the west by his guru. he didn't say how was it then that he came to the west... but in any case, if his guru had literally killed him otherwise, then again I am not interested in such a lineage... :(

    yes, starting-up something is always hards, especially in foreign countries, but what has it got to do with the issue we are talking about?

    and if he needs help and he's a victim, then again he's not a self-realized guru, not the sun, who can help others to become self-realized. he's a blind leading the blind.
    and why doesn't he come out and tell he's a victim and he needs help? so that his disciples can help him? or why don't his disciples tell him he seems to be a victim himself and he should resign as guru?

    and yes, he could follow shankaracarya's example: shankaracarya was not pretending to be a sanyasa while enjoying the pleasures of worldly life, we was wearing a king's clothes (and even body) so he was sincere about the life he was leading.

    and about the sun again: the first question again is whether he's the sun at all. and the second, whether he's enormous benefit to all.
    I think someone who lives in such a big lie is not the sun at all, per definition.
    one cannot be pure from lies without being pure from lies.
    and there are so many people saying he was not enormous benefit to them, rather the opposite.

    and your forgiving him is fine, but the way you wish to forgive/ignore his black spots is contributing to them.
    and the fact that you personally find shelter by him is fine, but in this case a selfish and irrelevant argument.
  • truthseeker September 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @Sunyakash:

    Do you think that swAmi is a normal man with normal needs or do you think he is above worldly needs? You can't have both.

    He often says "YOU can't control the karmendriyas of eating and sex", suggesting he CAN control them, or at least is striving for that. But we can see his has very little control over both (not to mention his greed for money and fame), I'd say most people have more control over their natural desires than him, AND most importantly, they are honest about their needs.

    SwAmi doesn't even choose a certain person to spend his life with and maybe marry her, but he uses his authority to have a harem as you call it, and by tricking many women in believing it's spiritual to have sex with him. At the same time he is advising followers to marry rather than just live together, don't divorce and generally promoting (to Western standards) old fashioned ideas, for example speaking out against free sex and homosexuality. How do you combine this double standard in your mind?

    I'm starting to believe you are actually against swAmi, I don't think he will be happy with your words, because he wants to keep his saintly image and his image of being above worldy things. Continue as you do, I don't mind, it may drive more people out of YiDL, so he won't be able to abuse them anymore. And with abuse I don't only mean sex.
  • NoviSadCalling September 2011
    Posts: 175

    Can you please share with us more information about your experience with XXX having any kind of special abilities? Regarding him knowing someone's past or present - generally speaking, it is not too dificult to do a background job of digging information about anyone.
  • NoviSadCalling September 2011
    Posts: 175
    "The problem I see is that even guru has rights for sex (or private) life and he can't be discriminated in this manner by picking up only women that are not his disciples (absurdic) or outside YIDL (make no sense). Having harem of girls is in deep tradition of eastern. "

    No, guru has no right for sex with disciples. Neither morally, nor legally (in many countries). And, someone declaring as living in celibate is having sex? And you still does not see anything problematic here?

    The rest of your post is plainly bull*t.
  • rigell1 September 2011
    Posts: 13
    hahaha, I ´ve just joined this forum, bus I am sorry to say, you are all so aggressiv... and if somebody has some doubts, you push him down... you are immediately touched if you feel disbelieved, but you do not believe anybody with positive feelings...

    dear Ushmeypuri, I did not remerber to see you ever realy sized up, whether for money nor for wisdom...

    everybody is searching answers, surely there are some answers... - I think one must see deep inside himself.
    God is in your heart. (Well, some of you does not believe in God, so I must ask: Do you believe, there is matter in the form of fields? Quarks, and smaller, and so on. For me is God the first state of matery before the Big Bang. In this sence: this state of matter still does exist in your heart.) Guru is the word for the light living in your heart. If you want to find him you must get rid of the imagination of holy person in orange dress solving all your problems. My best friend use to say: God does not any mistake. I do not know who is XXXXX. Maybe he is just a normal person in the puzzle of this world. But I do not try to puzzle this world perfectly together. I try to find my inner light, to give up the false identification, to find out WHO or WHAT I AM. I would like to tell to all of you: If you think, it is your duty to destroy YDL, do it. If you think, it is you duty to warn you sisters, do it. But be aware, do not let to be poisoned yourself.
  • Georg+Naggies+%28Ex-Ushmeypuri%29Georg Naggies (Ex-Ushmeypuri) September 2011
    Posts: 84
    Reply to @rigell1: "dear Ushmeypuri, I did not remerber to see you ever realy sized up, whether for money nor for wisdom..." Well, little wonder, the sWami never looked for wisdom anywhere besides his own blabber. That was and still is the problem with him, his inflated ideas about himself prevent him from listening and learning in a normal manner. Money is another matter. I dont know you. Were you even present? If yes then please identify yourself and I can start to point out what I meant and what you could possibly have seen. Else your statement is meaningless and you have just joined us in the all-so-aggressive club.
    Thanks for pointing out the dangers of poisoning oneself with vindictiveness, but doesn't apply mostly because we are having first of all lots of fun here.
  • truthseeker September 2011
    Posts: 541
    Reply to @Ushmeypuri:

    "Thanks for pointing out the dangers of poisoning oneself with vindictiveness, but doesn't apply mostly because we are having first of all lots of fun here."

    I agree, this is all very fascinating material, humans are very interesting creatures.
    I learn a lot from all this, about myself, about life and about morality.
  • Tony September 2011
    Posts: 172
    Reply to @rigell1: " Do you believe, there is matter in the form of fields? Quarks, and smaller, and so on. For me is God the first state of matery before the Big Bang. "

    Please, please, please... This is too much. Seriously. I beg you, do not use words you don't understand. In particular, do the Universe a favour and do not ever write, say, or even think the phrase "before the Big Bang". Why don't you keep your pseudointellectual insights confined to "spiritual" problems, something fairly nonsensical to begin with, so you can't really cause any harm by using stochastic language. Just keep the Queen of Sciences out of it.

    And because I am in good mood, here is a free thought for you to ponder: It does not matter what you believe.
  • georg108 September 2011
    Posts: 5
    What I miss is some balance, and I agree with mr. Rigell1 that, it looks, that your intention is more destruction of YIDL then to help this lady’s. If you want to help them, get them money for lawyers and go to court, or give them money for some prof. help. Why do you wish to destroy YIDL?
    As I said, I know that one women had pictures of XXXXX in her bedroom, I know she was many years after “this events” very close to XXXXX . Angela is claiming that also XXXXX was trying to have sex with her, in Novi Sad, Swami Cidanad has still pictures of XXXXX on the wall….
    All accusations about money are also in my opinion very weak, if XXXXX wanted to be rich, he could have been. But as we all know, XXXXX does not own private villas, orange Bentleys and swimming pools with jacuzzi’s….
    As I said, my feeling is that everything here is fishy.
  • someonefromhungary September 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @georg108: my dream would be to see yidl revive. swAmi and whoever else cannot maintain celibacy would simply disrobe, would say sorry for and rectify the possible lies and wrongs and would go on teaching what is useful, for example, sincerity. it's probably a utopia but that's what I really wish.
    the fact that this whole forum is distructive to yidl at the moment is unfortunately inevitable and inherent. because yidl and swAmi -- however much good they may be also doing -- are currently causing considerable damage to a lot of people by these lies. so every time we try to protect someone, it suggests that yidl is an organisation from which people should be protected.
    and even if we had more wish for destruction than to protect, and we were more ill-intentioned people on average than for example yidl or any other group of people, it doesn't change the fact that there is something to be protected from. and doesn't change the fact that swAmi says that he is different, he is better, he is more than us but he doesn't seem so... and especially when in conflict, when he is criticised. he more or less seem to act like politicians do. he doesn't come here or contact privately any of us and talk openly. although I often heard that swAmi even takes care of his ex-disciples... for me, care in this case would mean exactly that. direct and open communication.
  • VeritasVeritas September 2011
    Posts: 218
    Reply to @someonefromhungary:
    Exactly. There is no need to destroy the organization, nor intention. They do it themselves anyway. By using methods of denial, defamation, threatening and lying, they cause considerable havoc to their credibility and reputation. This behaviour stands diametrically to the teachings.

    @georg108 You have to understand that the organization consists of layers. Only those who are considered unconditional(!) loyal, might enter the inner core. Even very long time members are not within the inner core, which would be allowed to have access to some of the organizations secrets. Why does such an organization need to have secrets anyway? In this subject personal observation can be quite misleading, if you were not to be within the core.

    Please understand that you can't expect to get all the answers dished up for you, all has been said here more than once, so if you really want to inform yourself, take the time and read. We are not on a mission here, the information is here for all, but we are no servants neither crusaders, who would wish to convert all to our believe.
    If you are happy and all is fine for you there, stay. If doubts might arise, do not push them aside, take a good look. You might be surprised what you see. Be aware, that there is a considerable number of people, who did not share the pleasant experience on the long run. And they are not all "psychotic" or fallen disciples (maya) or whatever explanation is being dished up by yidl gossip.

    Please also try to understand that this perceived "aggression" of the opposing side has its root in deep disappointment, the feeling of having been betrayed in the worse possible way - and also in the infamous style, this subject has been handled by hard-core followers (fanatics).
  • truthseeker September 2011
    Posts: 541
    @georg108: it's obvious you haven't read much of this forum yet, (which I understand, it will take many hours to read everything that has been written sofar), otherwise you would know that swAmi does have a private villa in Prague. There have been several posts about this, it started with this one: http://www.sexabuseyidl.com/discussion/comment/237#Comment_237

    And about our wish to destroy YiDL: we don't only want to help the ladies that have testified but all other women that have been abused by swAmi, are still being abused and that may be abused in the future. And all other people, basically everybody, whose trust, dignity, money, etc. are being abused by him. I'm sorry, but you too. If we show who he really is, the opposite of the saint he claims to be, he will trick less people into his cult and abuse fewer people. That's the evil that we want to destroy, which is very hard to achieve by going to court. SwAmi has the best lawyers, paid for by our money.

    Me and all other opponents of swAmi used to be suckers just like you, we have been where you are. I personally also didn't believe the allegations in the beginning, it was just so hugely different from the image I had of him. But if you read the forum like I did, and if your mind hasn't been 'culticized' too much, I'm confident you will draw the same conclusion as me. You can also read the many links to websites about cult psychology. And if this all still doesn't convince, you can contact Angela, maybe the personal contact will work. Hopefully the realisation will come soon, and if not, I wish you good luck with your illusion.
  • georg108 September 2011
    Posts: 5
    Reply to @truthseeker:
    You are right, I haven't read all post, only a few. I agree, I don't know about villa in Prague. I just meant that some Yogis made in USA a real fortune compared to xxxxx. My rationale was based on my opinion that YIDL activates were all low cost, and as far as I know, I think If someone would like to earn a lot of money, things would have been different.
    I can understand that you want to help people in the cult and I accept this as a positive motive. My experiences are just different that's all.
    I have wasted too much time thinking about all this.... So I hope this is my last post and I am returning to my life.
    I think I have learned a lot from XXXXX, all what I heard in seminars, private meeting of organizers, talking to him 1-2-1 etc... is extremely positive. I can not deny this fact!!! I hope that you also understand also my point?
  • someonefromhungary September 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @georg108: dear georg108, I appreciate you sincerely telling you have only read a few things... and if you don't have more time, you don't... but I still hope you might have some more time in the future to read this forum and to investigate the case for yourself...
    I myself have also heard a lot of things absolutely worth to learn from swAmi and his disciples... and many of these people acted so wisely, with such patience, in such a caring and positive/divine manner so many times... I can really only say superlatives... and yoga (according to my definition) also helps these people a lot to become even better...
    still we seem to fail to act wisely and with compassion many times... out of ignorance or meta-ignorance (i.e., we know we are acting wrong but we compromise)...
    dunno the rest,
    but all the best,
    "this me"
  • Tony September 2011
    Posts: 172
    Reply to @georg108: "I have wasted too much time thinking about all this.... So I hope this is my last post and I am returning to my life."

    Let's suppose, despite all your positive memories, that all of the allegations are true, and your guru really is a complete fraud. Suppose it is true.

    What would that do to you, to your life? How much would you have lost? How much time would you have wasted believing in something that has been all fake? What is the cost, to you personally, of being wrong on this one? Can you actually afford to even consider such possibility?
  • truthseeker September 2011
    Posts: 541
    You are right that swAmi is a relatively 'small' guru, compared to for example Maharishi XXXXX Yogi, Osho or Sai Baba. The first one was lucky to be visited by the greatest celebrities of the sixties (you know, the Fab Four), this catapulted his career. So many people were attracted to Osho probably because of the 'free sex' (sex sells, as we all know). What attracted people to Sai Baba I don't know, maybe his Afro? :-)

    Keeping the prices for seminars low is probably just a business strategy. If your prices are too high not enough people will show up and if your prices are too low you also can't make a profit. So you have to find the right price which will attract enough people and enables you to make a profit. Furthermore, by convincing people to put money in the boxes for charity, you get huge tips. And the more people you manage to keep in the organisation after their first seminar, the bigger it will get, the new revenues opening new possibilities.

    SwAmi has collected some Indian folk wisdom during the years and he's developed his communication skills, so his words can appear very wise and interesting to us ignorant westerners. I also considered most of the things he said in his seminars positive. But what is it worth if he is only wise in his speech in public and in private meetings with people in the outer circle, but doesn't apply it in his behaviour in his private time?

    But do think about your personal responsibilities in your job and family, we don't want to waste your time. If you withdraw from YiDL more or less swAmi won't be able to use you as a bait to attract other people. The less normal people like you he has in his organisation, the less likely he is to attract other normal thinking people. Persons like Sunyakash or Connex, with their twisted views, are not so good baits.
  • angela September 2011
    Posts: 13
    I like to say Thank You for coming to the Split meeting to the people from yidl here today.
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] September 2011
    Posts: 0
    Reply to @angela:
    you must be joking or your perception of reality is completely wrong...
    or you are maybe ironic...
  • someonefromhungary September 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @storymaker: can you explain?
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] September 2011
    Posts: 0
    Reply to @someonefromhungary:
    yes, I can
    She thanks for coming people of YIDL, although it is perfectly clear to everyone that they did not come to hear her story or to talk about it with her or to suport that kind of meeting , just to be present in situation
    It is either ironic or misunderstanding or...using the situation in purpose to represent their coming in other light
  • someonefromhungary September 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @storymaker: thank you. so they appeared according to you too. and I understand what you say, but even if you feel it is strange to thank them for that, I am also thanking them, absolutely seriously and without any irony and without ignoring that their purposes for appearing may have been as you write. because I really wish to have open discussion, and appearance at that meeting is a more open act than what I have seen so far. at least being face to face... and I thank for them for sacrificing one argument by their appearance: for them, Angela is not an anonymous/virtual person any more.
  • %5BDeleted+User%5D[Deleted User] September 2011
    Posts: 0
    Reply to @someonefromhungary:
    ok enjoy your fairy tale, but I can tell you only that all of them knew her from before, she was not virtual to them, not at all and all of them have opinion about her from before
    most of us from ex yugoslavia, we know her very well from our visit to Jadan and for long time, she was married to one of the NoviSad karma yogi
    but knowing who she is, doesn't give more value to her story, I can tell for my self that her story even lost when I found out who she is.
  • someonefromhungary September 2011
    Posts: 334
    Reply to @storymaker: so they all knew her before. fine. still they could choose not to face her. and if they all had their opinion before then that's also fine. still they chose to face her. if I am offering a meeting to anyone I am happy if people come even if I expect that meeting to be a hard one.
  • falseswamijifalseswamiji September 2011
    Posts: 255
    Short report from Split meeting with Angela :
    Split is a small town and not many people were expected to come but though with just a few people involved half of them were active yidl representatives.
    Still nothing unexpected happened- people from yidl came with already predefined views though most of them didn't even bother to read the site.
    A reporter also came from one Croatian newspapers but was immediately not very kindly 'informed' from yidl representatives of swji's influence and authority, connections with Croatian politicians ( ex president Mesic ) and possible legal charges against the newspaper if they don't like the article. They also gave her telphone number of yidl center in Zagreb for official statement from some vip guy with spiritual name that is head of the yidl croatia.
    Angela told her story again but with not many details since some of the yidls had too weak stomach for listening the details ( or reading the abuse site). One of them was walking around during her testimony not to have to listen to her at all. I was sitting and listening Angela and watching people from yidl and i almost started to cry from inside, i felt the emotional tension that was in the air and compassion for those people that are so tense and defensive and for Angela too that she has to go through the story over and over again.
    Basically, they were not open at all to even listen with open mind and heart , and ' with due respect' as they said , we are just all big liars, though they don't see any reason why we should do so.
    We are liars because "they know their guru better than we do".
    Though it seems that no result has been achieved I know that on a certain level we made a little change. Not visible and not known even to those people that were there confronting us so rigidly, but i feel that something good has happened though.
    I am tired from all this, I must admit, I need some silence and distance from all this story.
    Information has been sent , now everyone has to make his decision for himself.
    I hope we have prevented at least a few abuses and healed some of those that happened.
    I hope those that are still in yidl will be more cautious and aware of everything that happens around them in the future and none will get hurt anymore.
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